Intel 13th/14th instability and degradation topic - Lets talk?

[ENTERPRISE]

2 hours ago, Kaz said:

Thought I'd give an update on the RMA processes for anyone wondering.

Initially intel requested the following information when filling out a RMA request.

• Can you describe the issue more to us?
• Was this working before or a newly integrated system?
• Did you make recent changes to the system?
• Have you performed other troubleshooting steps?
• Was the processor purchased less than 30 days ago?
• Did you overclock the processor?
• What power scheme are you currently running? You can find this option at Control Panel -> Power Options. The power schemes include: Balanced, Power saver, High Performance, or Ultimate Performance.
• To expedite warranty requests, provide the serial number (ATPO) found on the processor markings and shipping box

 

I included all the above information in the initial request, so I didn't respond to their follow up request that requested the same information.  This resulted in them closing the case 5 (3 business) days later.  When I followed up with them by providing the information they reopened their case and directed me to this webpage.

 

June 2024 Guidance regarding Intel Core 13th and 14th Gen K/KF/KS instability reports - Intel Community

COMMUNITY.INTEL.COM

---

Intel and its partners are continuing to investigate user reports regarding instability issues on Intel Core 13th and 14th generation (K/KF/KS)...

 

These are the recommended power specs for anyone running an intel processor.  It is recommended to adjust your motherboard settings appropriately.  Intel has said they will follow up with me in a month to see if those changes make a difference.

 

(Spoiler alert, it's not going to help.)  My motherboard has had Intel stock power limits enforced from the beginning.  The moment I re-enable all my c-state power settings, it's going to freeze within 20 minutes.  The extra time Intel has requested will allow me to see AMD 9000 reviews and decide what to do from there.  I'm curious how the 9900x preforms against the 7900X3D.  I'm very concerned that a 14700K replacement will only add more cores and create a bigger ring bus voltage problem.  I don't want to buy a new AMD motherboard, but I don't want a faulty processor in the next 4 years even more. 

 

Just a side note for anyone else dealing with this, intel replacements do not reset the warranty time.  The last time I went through intel RMA for an SSD, the SSD was replaced and the replacement died 1 1/2 years later.  If given the option between replacement and refund, always choose refund.  You can buy a replacement and get a new warranty with it. 

 

Thanks for the Intel...pun intended. I for one cannot believe that they are not giving you a fresh warranty with the replacement CPU's, that seems out of order in general but especially considering the issues Intel have had with these CPU'S. Out of good faith they should be offering everyone affected a full new warranty.

[Memmento Mori]

6 minutes ago, ENTERPRISE said:

 

Thanks for the Intel...pun intended. I for one cannot believe that they are not giving you a fresh warranty with the replacement CPU's, that seems out of order in general but especially considering the issues Intel have had with these CPU'S. Out of good faith they should be offering everyone affected a full new warranty.

well i see your point, and all decent ppl would do this. But here is money talking and making decission. Money does not behave as decent ppl, and from the bysiness perspective - "we know its a probably a faulty product, why would we prolong the waranty for it?" there is no business case behind, just a GIANT hole in the budget and red numbers...

 

well its dissapointing a bit, bellieve they would have the money, power and abylity to do better.... 

 

2 hours ago, Kaz said:

Thought I'd give an update on the RMA processes for anyone wondering.

Initially intel requested the following information when filling out a RMA request.

• Can you describe the issue more to us?
• Was this working before or a newly integrated system?
• Did you make recent changes to the system?
• Have you performed other troubleshooting steps?
• Was the processor purchased less than 30 days ago?
• Did you overclock the processor?
• What power scheme are you currently running? You can find this option at Control Panel -> Power Options. The power schemes include: Balanced, Power saver, High Performance, or Ultimate Performance.
• To expedite warranty requests, provide the serial number (ATPO) found on the processor markings and shipping box

 

I included all the above information in the initial request, so I didn't respond to their follow up request that requested the same information.  This resulted in them closing the case 5 (3 business) days later.  When I followed up with them by providing the information they reopened their case and directed me to this webpage.

 

June 2024 Guidance regarding Intel Core 13th and 14th Gen K/KF/KS instability reports - Intel Community

COMMUNITY.INTEL.COM

---

Intel and its partners are continuing to investigate user reports regarding instability issues on Intel Core 13th and 14th generation (K/KF/KS)...

 

These are the recommended power specs for anyone running an intel processor.  It is recommended to adjust your motherboard settings appropriately.  Intel has said they will follow up with me in a month to see if those changes make a difference.

 

(Spoiler alert, it's not going to help.)  My motherboard has had Intel stock power limits enforced from the beginning.  The moment I re-enable all my c-state power settings, it's going to freeze within 20 minutes.  The extra time Intel has requested will allow me to see AMD 9000 reviews and decide what to do from there.  I'm curious how the 9900x preforms against the 7900X3D.  I'm very concerned that a 14700K replacement will only add more cores and create a bigger ring bus voltage problem.  I don't want to buy a new AMD motherboard, but I don't want a faulty processor in the next 4 years even more. 

 

Just a side note for anyone else dealing with this, intel replacements do not reset the warranty time.  The last time I went through intel RMA for an SSD, the SSD was replaced and the replacement died 1 1/2 years later.  If given the option between replacement and refund, always choose refund.  You can buy a replacement and get a new warranty with it. 

 

Thank you very much for sharing, and wish you good luck with it, would be nice of you could get your money back....  Keep us posted...

[Kaz]

5 hours ago, ENTERPRISE said:

 

Thanks for the Intel...pun intended. I for one cannot believe that they are not giving you a fresh warranty with the replacement CPU's, that seems out of order in general but especially considering the issues Intel have had with these CPU'S. Out of good faith they should be offering everyone affected a full new warranty.

I wish.

 

Quote

Intel Boxed Processors typically carry a three-year limited warranty that can be fulfilled by Intel (some carry a one-year limited warranty). The warranty eligibility period starts on the original purchase date and doesn't reset if Intel provides a product replacement. Refer to the Warranty Policy for Intel Boxed and Tray Processors.

Warranty Guide for Intel® Processors

 

 

It's the faulty product aspect that has me worried.  With as much time as has passed (20 months), a replacement wouldn't have time to degrade before the warranty has expired. 

 

Part of me thinks the 14700K has the same problem and that the microcode fix won't change an architectural design issue (too much voltage on the ring bus for all the added e-cores).  14700K has 4 more e-cores, so the problem may be more pronounced.  If that's the case, this would result in another RMA, unless the microcode update slows down the degradation. 

 

RMA = Free upgrade Good.

Dead CPU no RMA.  Bad. 

Avoidable gamble at the cost of an AMD motherboard....

 

Decisions decisions.  Guess I'll be watching review videos this month.  Can't say I'm really a fan of e-cores.

[Slaughtahouse]

Intel announces two extra years of warranty amid chip crashing and instability issues — longer warranty applies to 13th- and 14th-Gen Core processors | Tom's Hardware

WWW.TOMSHARDWARE.COM

---

Trying to build goodwill.

 

[J7SC_Orion]

I see more and more folks trying to sell their 14900K systems now with sizable discounts, sometimes with Z790 mobo, RAM - the whole lot. Intel also announced suspension of dividends and the potential for job cuts after 'not meeting sales expectations' this quarter. I still have more Intel CPUs than AMD, but my last four purchases were all AMD 16c/32t of different gens (got the first one in November 2018). I hope Intel finds its way through this and AMD stays 'humble' since we as consumers benefit from real competition.

 

Below is Intel's ytd stock price - ouch. This comes at a time when Intel is trying to grow in the discreet GPU market (say hi to NVidia at the top and AMD in the middle), defend their server / enterprise share and expand building new fabs....those fabs take many billions of $s capital cost upfront and three++ years before any return on investment - and a hidden flaw can ruin the best-laid plans. In my humble opinion (I may be wrong),  Intel's root problems started with their last CEO, a time when Intel was not led by someone with a decent/any engineering background. 

 

 

Edited August 2 by J7SC_Orion

[ShrimpBrime]

My 14700K actually tests OK.

 

Using B660-G, initial post with bios 2212 cpu v-core 1.7v. 2.8ghz p-core frequency. No good, immediate flash. 

 

Turned it off and immediately flashed to first support release Bios and ME firmware. 2603 version date 6/30/23. ME FW Version 16.1.25.2091 PCH stepping B1. 

 

Successful memory frequency 7000mhz Samsung C36 6000mhz sticks with relaxed timings to ensure stability. Vccsa 1.30v Vdimm 1.440v CL 38.

 

Cooling definitely an issue. Running Performance mode. It throttles as expected passing benchmarks even with inadequate cooling, and after several DryIce runs. 

 

Bad board and W11 ME firmware can't run the cpu properly. 

 

Intel's draw back is making it impossible to roll BACK the Fkn ME firmware. It is stated in several bios releases for my boards that cannot be un-done. Eek.

 

The board I have issues with is MSI Gaming plus wifi Z790. And Current W11 on 980 pro. The cpu won't pass any Cinebench run consistently. 2 of 12 passes maybe the benchmark won't crash. Doesn't matter what settings chosen. It's really bad. I'm glad to be fortunate enough to have a little gear laying around. Was gonna say, I don't recall having any issues until I flashed the MSI bios to the most up to date garbage. I do not recommend the flash. I think on the other hand, the cpu smoked my motherboard and I'm leaving that to a guess. Cause the cpu works fine over here.

 

This took no time to really produce. The people with stability issues will cry. If you have an old board with early firmware, pull it out and should be good to go. 

 

Do not update ME software or firmware. Will be benching off-line from here. Happy to not RMA the chip though!!

 

It's going to be interesting to see how Intel works this out. ME is integrated security, not just how the cpu is run. 

 

Edited August 2 by ShrimpBrime

[ShrimpBrime]

19 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

My 14700K actually tests OK.

 

Using B660-G, initial post with bios 2212 cpu v-core 1.7v. 2.8ghz p-core frequency. No good, immediate flash. 

 

Turned it off and immediately flashed to first support release Bios and ME firmware. 2603 version date 6/30/23. ME FW Version 16.1.25.2091 PCH stepping B1. 

 

Successful memory frequency 7000mhz Samsung C36 6000mhz sticks with relaxed timings to ensure stability. Vccsa 1.30v Vdimm 1.440v CL 38.

 

Cooling definitely an issue. Running Performance mode. It throttles as expected passing benchmarks even with inadequate cooling, and after several DryIce runs. 

 

Bad board and W11 ME firmware can't run the cpu properly. 

 

Intel's draw back is making it impossible to roll BACK the Fkn ME firmware. It is stated in several bios releases for my boards that cannot be un-done. Eek.

 

The board I have issues with is MSI Gaming plus wifi Z790. And Current W11 on 980 pro. The cpu won't pass any Cinebench run consistently. 2 of 12 passes maybe the benchmark won't crash. Doesn't matter what settings chosen. It's really bad. I'm glad to be fortunate enough to have a little gear laying around. Was gonna say, I don't recall having any issues until I flashed the MSI bios to the most up to date garbage. I do not recommend the flash. I think on the other hand, the cpu smoked my motherboard and I'm leaving that to a guess. Cause the cpu works fine over here.

 

This took no time to really produce. The people with stability issues will cry. If you have an old board with early firmware, pull it out and should be good to go. 

 

Do not update ME software or firmware. Will be benching off-line from here. Happy to not RMA the chip though!!

 

It's going to be interesting to see how Intel works this out. ME is integrated security, not just how the cpu is run. 

 

I know, super hard to believe. But hey, there's the evidence. Questions? Comments? 

[J7SC_Orion]

...cutting free fruit ? That's going too far

  

 

[ShrimpBrime]

3 hours ago, J7SC_Orion said:

...cutting free fruit ? That's going too far

  

 

Bloody hell. People really do eat that * up don't they lol. 

 

Listen to HX 1050 fan purr.... * sorry, its a picture. Gts 450.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3 by ShrimpBrime

[ShrimpBrime]

Ah, maybe I'm just not getting it across the right way?

 

I run the CPU like this. Windows update Perma-Disabled. Before I connected wee-fee. 

 

And it seems spotless of defect. Very clean feeling actually. Robust. Happy. 

 

B660-G good board. Love me long time. Z790 current ME biopsy and drama video links make no happy happy. 

 

But Shrimpy happy happy again. I feel sadly for those without fixage. (insert sad face)

 

Cooling History includes and not limited to DryIce to air cooling. This is air cooled screen shot accurate date time US/CA central.

 

Edit: sry sry I know. 

 

The 2 "Unknown devices" are the Management Engine. Thankfully W10 base install is too dumb to know the difference. And I don't plan on any kind of installing me updates that you can dl straight from intel either. Those just going to be unknown devices and shall carry on benching. 

 

Now I leave this information here, how Shrimp Recovered from nasty stability issues. Certainly not the processor, I've benched it plenty. The 13700K I sent Scotty is benching between expected 5.7 and 5.8ghz all core and 6.3ghz 2 cores on his chiller. Certainly not effected while I also DryIced that Cpu before he did and chilled it. 

 

The gossip is true, the engine is broken. Other than that, the physical cpu seems fine. I dunno. Maybe the cpu is Fked and I just don't know it yet lol.

 

The submission count of my 2 favorite processors of all times. 

 

Edited August 3 by ShrimpBrime

[schuck6566]

9 hours ago, J7SC_Orion said:

...cutting free fruit ? That's going too far

  

 

@Mr. Fox you're famous! lol

[Kaz]

10 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Bloody hell. People really do eat that * up don't they lol. 

As someone dealing with the RMA process, I'm glad GN is making a big deal out of this.  I still haven't been able to get my issue read by an actual person.

[ShrimpBrime]

20 hours ago, Kaz said:

As someone dealing with the RMA process, I'm glad GN is making a big deal out of this.  I still haven't been able to get my issue read by an actual person.

I would be happy to test the cpu for you. Probably nothing wrong with it....

[Slaughtahouse]

15 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

I would be happy to test the cpu for you. Probably nothing wrong with it....

 

If stable operation requires intervention from the user, there is something wrong with it.

 

I’m all for enthusiasts making tweaks to improve performance, better stable all core OCing or reducing power targets, but those should not be a requirement for the product to run at advertised speeds.

[ShrimpBrime]

21 minutes ago, Slaughtahouse said:

 

If stable operation requires intervention from the user, there is something wrong with it.

 

I’m all for enthusiasts making tweaks to improve performance, better stable all core OCing or reducing power targets, but those should not be a requirement for the product to run at advertised speeds.

I don't know what you're talking about. 

 

Mine works at advertised speeds because the B660-G I'm testing in ONLY allows default speeds. 

 

All I gotta do, slap the cpu in and test it. 

 

My Z790 MSI board on the other hand with the same processor, update bios and ME runs the cpu like sh¡t. MSI blames Intel. 

 

But I agree, users should just run defaults on all systems cause OC is dead for ambient overclockers any ways. Thing of the past.

Edited August 4 by ShrimpBrime

[Kaz]

25 minutes ago, ShrimpBrime said:

I would be happy to test the cpu for you. Probably nothing wrong with it....

Thanks for the offer, unfortunately even if the chip can preform on a different motherboard it doesn't help my situation.  I'm using an ASRock Z790 Steel Legend, it only had a 1 year warranty.  It also has the option to enforce Intel power settings, which I have stuck with since purchasing this processor back in Dec 2022.  Because I've been conservative with my power settings, it makes me wonder if this is an oxidation issue.  I haven't heard of anyone else having issues with C-State power settings. 

 

If partners are unable to support Intel processors, something is wrong. 

[ShrimpBrime]

1 minute ago, Kaz said:

Thanks for the offer, unfortunately even if the chip can preform on a different motherboard it doesn't help my situation.  I'm using an ASRock Z790 Steel Legend, it only had a 1 year warranty.  It also has the option to enforce Intel power settings, which I have stuck with since purchasing this processor back in Dec 2022.  Because I've been conservative with my power settings, it makes me wonder if this is an oxidation issue.  I haven't heard of anyone else having issues with C-State power settings. 

 

If partners are unable to support Intel processors, something is wrong. 

It may, or may not help. But if you can confirm the cpu is acltually in good shape, that means you can sell it.

 

I have a couple other chips could send you one. A 12400F that's been beat to death, dry iced up to 5.6ghz and runs fine. 

 

Or a 14100F quad core with HT I've run once and did most of the cpu benchmarks. Can't OC the cpu, so you know it's not beat to death haha. But it works, solid little chip. 

 

You could test your board with either of those cpus in the mean time.

 

And I would only test in the way you want described for various loads and games. Keeping in mind XMP is OC, I can test with that on or off too. 

 

I needed clarification about my own 14700K. It was more than 2x the price of my board. I confirmed it works. Normally. No alterations to bios except memory clocking and a little FSB. 

 

Anyways, willing to help. Even if you just want to try the 14100F, I can send it over. It's got less than 5 hours run time on it.

[Slaughtahouse]

On 04/08/2024 at 11:41, ShrimpBrime said:

I don't know what you're talking about. 

 

Mine works at advertised speeds because the B660-G I'm testing in ONLY allows default speeds. 

 

All I gotta do, slap the cpu in and test it. 

I meant in the context of this thread and what's happening across the board. Many different, large B2B customers (businesses, server providers etc.) are running into issues with up to 50% failure rate. This is all summarized in Wendell's video, which spearheaded all the additional media attention and largely, intel's initial response. That was the first media outlet to provide detailed insights on the infrastructure side, not typical consumer side. 

Spoiler

  

 

[ShrimpBrime]

5 hours ago, Slaughtahouse said:

I meant in the context of this thread and what's happening across the board. Many different, large B2B customers (businesses, server providers etc.) are running into issues with up to 50% failure rate. This is all summarized in Wendell's video, which spearheaded all the additional media attention and largely, intel's initial response. That was the first media outlet to provide detailed insights on the infrastructure side, not typical consumer side. 

  Hide contents

 

  

 

Not typical consumer side, but using consumer processors with 253w boost capabilities in server environments.

 

I find it very unlikely that the actual CPU failure rates are 50%. 

 

There was a company that had complained about HX mobile chips having stability issues.

 

Ect Ect.

 

What I don't see, is how these are actually being tested by the consumers using them to come up with a number of 50% CPU failure rates. 

 

So far we have, this outlet said so, therefor it is?

 

Yes there was a batch of 13th gen might of had some corrosion problems, but we don't even know what the Fkn batch numbers are to actually test and conclude this. 

 

Just because this guy did a report and a video, doesn't mean he has 50% of failed processors and is actually testing them to confirm these figures. He's just making a video about it and some possibilities.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any actual evidence of failures of 13 and 14th gen processors.

 

1 person has stood up (just at this forum so far) stating having stability issues. 

 

Would it matter if a Desktop cpu is used in the server motherboard? 50% failure rates from B2B consumers ONLY. 

 

Or is it all being blown way up out of reality? 

[Slaughtahouse]

18 hours ago, ShrimpBrime said:

Spoiler

Not typical consumer side, but using consumer processors with 253w boost capabilities in server environments.

 

I find it very unlikely that the actual CPU failure rates are 50%. 

 

There was a company that had complained about HX mobile chips having stability issues.

 

Ect Ect.

 

What I don't see, is how these are actually being tested by the consumers using them to come up with a number of 50% CPU failure rates. 

 

So far we have, this outlet said so, therefor it is?

 

Yes there was a batch of 13th gen might of had some corrosion problems, but we don't even know what the Fkn batch numbers are to actually test and conclude this. 

 

Just because this guy did a report and a video, doesn't mean he has 50% of failed processors and is actually testing them to confirm these figures. He's just making a video about it and some possibilities.

 

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any actual evidence of failures of 13 and 14th gen processors.

 

1 person has stood up (just at this forum so far) stating having stability issues. 

 

Would it matter if a Desktop cpu is used in the server motherboard? 50% failure rates from B2B consumers ONLY. 

 

Or is it all being blown way up out of reality? 

 

 

I hear you and I agree it's always healthy to challenge or question what's being reported.

 

I'll say that It's not just that one outlet. Buildzoid has also done an analysis and theorized to be clear, what are the potential issues. It's all in the original post in this thread. The effort from these outlets stem from multiple user reports (forums, online posting, intel responses) along side larger business customers (b2b, OEM, server providers etc.) reaching out to media outlets too. They all have some level of creditability which should be factored. I also never stated the above as 50% failure rates as fact (up to) as reported Wendell and never said "ONLY B2B".  There are also approx. 20-30 users active on this forum with different type of CPU hardware. I'm not sure if we'll get an accurate sample from users here. Until we get clarity from a deep dive and full analysis from a neutral third party, or Intel providing full visibility (near impossible due to liabilities, other legal issues) we'll continue to speculate. 

 

[Memmento Mori]

Just Saw there is an updated BIOS for my Z690 ACE with the new microcode.. Anyone noticed or already tested it? 

 

Title            Version               Release Date                File Size

AMI BIOS    7D27 v1H           2024-08-05                 10.45 MB

 

Description:

- Update CPU Microcode 0x125 - ME Firmware ver: ME_16.1.30.2361 (download) - ME Firmware update SOP

 

•  

Edited August 8 by Memmento Mori

[ShrimpBrime]

5 hours ago, Memmento Mori said:

Just Saw there is an updated BIOS for my Z690 ACE with the new microcode.. Anyone noticed or already tested it? 

 

Title            Version               Release Date                File Size

AMI BIOS    7D27 v1H           2024-08-05                 10.45 MB

 

Description:

- Update CPU Microcode 0x125 - ME Firmware ver: ME_16.1.30.2361 (download) - ME Firmware update SOP

 

•  

Reports of Asus released newer code 0x129. 

[Memmento Mori]

MSI Releases BIOS Update for Intel Core 14th and 13th Gen Desktop Processor Instability

WWW.TECHPOWERUP.COM

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Regarding the instability of the Intel Core 14th /13th Gen desktop processors, MSI will release the latest BIOS of Intel 700 and 600 series motherboards and 14th /13th Generation Desktop PC with 0x129...

same for MSI so lets wait for it 690 is suppose is the second trail so lets wait ..

 

[Slaughtahouse]

Intel details fixes for crashing 13th- and 14th-gen CPUs as BIOS updates roll out

ARSTECHNICA.COM

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This microcode fix can't be rolled out in a regular software update.

 

[Kaz]

I have installed the latest microcode, and have yet to see another hard freeze, although there have been multiple instances where the system hangs for a second or two.  Intel has approved my RMA.  They initially offered replacement, with the options being cross shipping +$25 (along with a freeze of funds for the amount of the processor, which is refunded at a later date), or their slower process which they said takes roughly 2-3 weeks for me to receive a replacement processor.  I asked about a refund and after 3 days they told me they needed another 3 days to have a meeting.   After the meeting I was told a refund of $419.99 had been approved.  I have no idea how they decided upon that amount, as it's cheaper than I paid for the processor, but more than the current market value.  When I asked them, it took 3 days to receive a response that the amount was based upon fair market value of a product that is over a year old. 

 

Overall I feel the process has been drawn out longer than it needed to be, but it was relatively painless.  I could get worked up that I spent $439.99 on the processor or $429.99 if the bundle promo is applied to the processor, but processors might be one of the few things I'd be happy to lease for $20 a year if it meant I always had a top tier processor.  I have to say that asking for a refund was worth the extra week of waiting.  Instead of $25 cross shipping charge, I now get a $30 refund and an upgrade to a 14700k, or a $70 refund and an exchange.

 

I'm leaning towards a 14700K as a replacement, and I'm hoping that the issue has been resolved.  AMD's most recent launch isn't all that tempting and I still have a Z790 motherboard.