TC Rules Discussion - The Reshaping of The Team Competition

[BWG]

Hey Everyone!

 

So, we have a few people interested in joining, that's good. I'm still trying to get some more, but I believe it's time we publicly discussed the biggest situation we've always had issues with for this event, how to balance out the teams to give everyone a chance to win. (No, not the stats site. I know someone's thinking that out there)

 

One thing I will mention is you can now fold for either team, OCN or EHW in this event, so when FAT rolls around on OCN, you don't have to re-configure your clients other than maybe switching teams if you normally fold here now. That's been tested by me and is functioning perfectly. I have 1 1070 on OCN and 1 1070 on EHW right now.

 

zodac used to use restrictions on hardware which I'm not a big supporter of. What 'it' did was allow a big ppd item in 1 category that was known to blow everything else away, for example, a RTX 3090 in our current environment. That would usually result in 1 folder winning a category and 1 folder having no chance to win a category. Not a big fan, never was, but it did level out the teams.

 

Enterprise has made a suggestion that I have checked on and can be implemented within the stats site which is a handicap system. We take the PPD estimates from a site and use the variance to come up with an individual hardware handicap. So, if 3090 is the top car in a category, and we take only the Windows PPD Averages into account, then the PPD is said to be 6,286,403 while the 3080 is 5,402,320. That means the 3080 is doing 86% of the 3090 PPD. We can make an overall points column in stats, and then an adjusted points column using a 116% adjustment to the points of the 3080 and score the category and competition on the adjusted/handicap totals. That leaves 3 variables to get an edge, 1) Folding better 2) Overclocking 3) Linux OS.

 

That's the best system we've come up with to equalize teams and make the event more close because as you can already see, the 3090 is roasting everyone else testing tc stats site combined.

Edited March 17, 2021 by BWG

[Avacado]

10 minutes ago, BWG said:

Hey Everyone!

 

So, we have a few people interested in joining, that's good. I'm still trying to get some more, but I believe it's time we publicly discussed the biggest situation we've always had issues with for this event, how to balance out the teams to give everyone a chance to win. (No, not the stats site. I know someone's thinking that out there)

 

One thing I will mention is you can now fold for either team, OCN or EHW in this event, so when FAT rolls around on OCN, you don't have to re-configure your clients other than maybe switching teams if you normally fold here now. That's been tested by me and is functioning perfectly. I have 1 1070 on OCN and 1 1070 on EHW right now.

 

zodac used to use restrictions on hardware which I'm not a big supporter of. What 'it' did was allow a big ppd item in 1 category that was known to blow everything else away, for example, a RTX 3090 in our current environment. That would usually result in 1 folder winning a category and 1 folder having no chance to win a category. Not a big fan, never was, but it did level out the teams.

 

Enterprise has made a suggestion that I have checked on and can be implemented within the stats site which is a handicap system. We take the PPD estimates from a site and use the variance to come up with an individual hardware handicap. So, if 3090 is the top car in a category, and we take only the Windows PPD Averages into account, then the PPD is said to be 6,286,403 while the 3080 is 5,402,320. That means the 3080 is doing 86% of the 3090 PPD. We can make an overall points column in stats, and then an adjusted points column using a 116% adjustment to the points of the 3080 and score the category and competition on the adjusted/handicap totals. That leaves 3 variables to get an edge, 1) Folding better 2) Overclocking 3) Linux OS.

 

That's the best system we've come up with to equalize teams and make the event more close because as you can already see, the 3090 is roasting everyone else testing tc stats site combined.

Glad that you have been doing work on this and the handicap is a great solution. I must say I disagree with making Linux OS a variable. I personally have never used Linux, which I know can yield better PPD on some cards. It doesn't seem right or fair that to compete, I would have to learn a whole new OS. There should only be 2 variables, luck of the WU's being assigned and OCing.  I get it, a lot of people use Linux, but still that would suck to have to get to learn to be relevant. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Avacado

[BWG]

So, query each user and ask what os they will run, and then base the adjustment on the PPD figures estimated for the os?

[Avacado]

8 minutes ago, BWG said:

So, query each user and ask what os they will run, and then base the adjustment on the PPD figures estimated for the os?

Word. You using Lar.Systems database for reference?

[BWG]

1 minute ago, Avacado said:

Word. You using Lar.Systems database for reference?

 

Yeah, for now. I imagine some adjustments will need to be made in the future, but it should be a great baseline adjustment.

 

This is not exactly final either. Other options are being considered, but this seemed like the most reasonable solution. It also makes it so old hardware can compete. Kind of interesting, yet I know there will be issues to work out still.

 

I have also thought of making Division III, which was reserves/proving grounds previously, into categories that are simply individual cards. Example: Category 3090, 3080, 3070, etc. that we isolate passkeys and track anyone who wants us to. That gives us something interesting to look at and users can see exactly what each piece of hardware is doing and how it stacks up without being in TC. This could also be used for other future folding events. Could even explore an event where you get points, somewhat like auto racing, for each position within the category. 

[Bastiaan_NL]

6 hours ago, BWG said:

That's been tested by me and is functioning perfectly.

Same, I've been running my card for the Foldathon over there and no hiccups in the stats

 

I like the idea of the handicap system, test it out and we'll see what happens.

 

[tenchimuyo93]

9 hours ago, Bastiaan_NL said:

Same, I've been running my card for the Foldathon over there and no hiccups in the stats

 

I like the idea of the handicap system, test it out and we'll see what happens.

 

agreed

[BWG]

I have some more updates on this. We're going to run 3 person teams. Categories will be nVidia/AMD GPU categories, and CPU Wildcard. Each category will have a points adjustment to each users points, except for the highest performing hardware in the category, based on the PPD Database estimates on lars. Any hardware might be competitive now. I hope we see GTS 450's whooping 3090's No, not really. If it's not on lars, it will be ineligible.

 

zodac, axipher, and 1337Lutz are working together to adjust the stats site to show the changes. It should look similar, but add a field to show the active multiplier and adjusted points. Eta on completion is unknown at this time, but it could be live for testing sometime next month in it's revised state. 

 

We're still testing the current site though. End of month and historic team results mostly to see if those are functional. 

[Bastiaan_NL]

Thanks for the update, and thanks to Zodac, Axipher and 1337Lutz for working on this!
If you need more hardware online, or different hardware for testing let me know. 

[axipher]

Hoping this week that we can get the code sorted out on a dev-site alongside the main.

[BWG]

1 hour ago, Bastiaan_NL said:

Thanks for the update, and thanks to Zodac, Axipher and 1337Lutz for working on this!
If you need more hardware online, or different hardware for testing let me know. 

 

We, um, need all of the hardware for EHW plz ty lol

[Bastiaan_NL]

6 minutes ago, BWG said:

 

We, um, need all of the hardware for EHW plz ty lol

I only have one 5700xt left, but I ran out of PSU's lol

But I meant online for the TC with a different passkey (just requested another one). 

[BWG]

16 hours ago, Bastiaan_NL said:

I only have one 5700xt left, but I ran out of PSU's lol

But I meant online for the TC with a different passkey (just requested another one). 

 

I can add that in if you want. How were you thinking you'd manage a rad in that inwin case? It's about time for me to fill it up.

[tictoc]

Let me know if you want me to throw a CPU or two at the TC, to get some sort of baseline points.  I have some cores free for the next couple of weeks while I continue to migrate hardware around.

 

Anything and everything that I'm folding on will always be in Linux.  Not sure how I feel about handicapping based on  the OS, but I could probably put together some comparative numbers, if we are going to go that route.  For GPU categories, I'm not sure what the performance looks like between Windows and Linux now that the majority of WUs are using CUDA, rather than OpenCl, on NVIDIA cards.

 

Right now I have a Ryzen 7 1700 pushing an RTX 2080S and a 5700XT, that could serve as a bit of a test bed for performance.  It is the machine that is currently folding in two TC categories, and I could add some CPU tasks into the mix.  The machine is running headless, so I am probably getting about the absolute maximum performance on the GPUs, with the least amount of OS/driver overhead, that is possible.

[BWG]

Lars does have some Linux data we were going to use. But, I think we should hash that part out when we get to simulate these new rules when the new stats site is live. I think we'll get a good feel for how this database will work for us in our adjustments.

 

I think at this point, we're good with what we have in the existing site. Just waiting for month end to see what's broken.

Edited March 24, 2021 by BWG

[Bastiaan_NL]

7 hours ago, BWG said:

 

I can add that in if you want. How were you thinking you'd manage a rad in that inwin case? It's about time for me to fill it up.

I'll add the passkey to a few cards Saturday for validation, after the competition has ended. Not sure which card or CPU will receive the passkey, most likely a 2080s or ti. 

 

[edit]

I was thinking about using a 240 AIO on the back of that case with some sort of extra shroud to give it some room between the back panel and the fans.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Bastiaan_NL

[Bastiaan_NL]

The 5700xt system is online for TC testing and validating the passkey, power limited at 85% for heat/noise.

 

[BWG]

I didn't get to it last night, but I will today. I suppose we should go ahead and get some Team Captain's and Team Names sorted out while we await the stats changes. 

[Bastiaan_NL]

That's not a problem, the passkey is added to 3 cards now to validate it. 5 units left and after that it'll be only the AMD card.

 

Good idea about the names and captains. I would like the Fluffy Pink Ninja's to live on!

Also, the team comp might need a sub section in the F@H section

 

 

[BWG]

I can put hertz on fpn if you want.

 

So, little update for all those that are wondering. @zodac is building tables, @axipher is building php, @1337lutz is imagining the new graphics and layout. We could be in demo stage by next week.

 

@ENTERPRISEis adding the sub-forum.

 

So, let's talk about the teams. Summoning all those who signed up for the event: @tenchimuyo93 @Supercrumpet @Avacado @Zonalo @tictoc @damric @Bastiaan_NL

 

[Avacado]

I'll be ready to talk about the TC AFTER I get the 5 Teslas under water. Going to be at least a month. 

[BWG]

6 minutes ago, Avacado said:

I'll be ready to talk about the TC AFTER I get the 5 Teslas under water. Going to be at least a month. 

 

TC is delayed for Avacado's Tesla's.  

 

NOT!

[Avacado]

I have so many dang building projects, that I never have room for software projects. Remind me again why we need separate passkeys?

[BWG]

13 minutes ago, Avacado said:

I have so many dang building projects, that I never have room for software projects. Remind me again why we need separate passkeys?

 

Because it's the only way we can track points on a single piece of hardware. It's not a fold all event, it's a single item in a category. Did you never TC on OCN? We could just leave you out as a Captain for now. I'm sure it will expand a little later where you could form a team to captain then. I have interested captains as you, cptasian, tictoc, and kobalt. I may run FPN for Bastiaan and use the hertz 960, so with 12 interested, we would only need 3 more captains and we have 4 interested. What do you think?

 

EDIT: Yeah, you didn't huh? Read this sometime, if it's even still legible, to get a feel for the event: https://www.overclock.net/threads/team-competition-manual.1270919/

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by BWG

[damric]

Hi. What do I need to do?