Pio's new (lol) projects

[pio]

31 minutes ago, Storm-Chaser said:

If you don't already have on picked out, might try the ATi Xpert 2000...

Already have a Radeon 8500 for that build. 

 

I got to thinking about the messed up molex connectors, and the only rig I've actually turned on with those broken splitters was my "newer" socket a rig. I think the gpu (x1950xt) is still alive even with the broken splitters on it. I'll bet the card didn't even use the 5v rail, so hopefully it lives. The drives would've been the only other thing plugged in with the splitters, and ironically I was having drive problems with it last time I had it out. So I'm really hoping I didn't kill anything.  Now that I've thought about it, I'm hopeful that there's minimal actual damage. 

 

Ordered splitters and extensions from modmymods last night. I'm sure they'll carry cables that aren't wired wrong. They'll be here next week. I have the second 939 rig half built (with g92 sli), however I might also have different gpu's coming for that one.

[pio]

So I know it's not entirely build related, but kinda is. I posted this in "post your last purchase", but it was bought for these builds. Just scored 2 sets of good speakers for these builds, and a monitor for the Socket A Athlon Xp build! 

 

Making note here, so I hopefully don't forget. Speakers I have now (for builds):

Micca mb42 / smsl ad18 / +sub

Polk Audio AMR-70 2.1

Klipsh ProMedia 2.1

Harmon Kardon 2.0 (pictured)

Diamond Audio Edison 2.0 (very VERY similar to the Harmon Kardon's pictured)

 

Seems like I might still need a few more sets, but the collection is coming along nicely at least. I'm having a difficult time finding beige stuff locally. I will need 2 sets of beige speakers, and 2 beige 4:3 monitors (hopefully crt's). The rest can all be black like I have. I lost count of how many full systems I'm even building at this point!

 

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[pio]

Not sure if I shared a picture of my other speakers I scored a few weeks ago.  Polk Audio AMR70's.  The ones I have are black.  Not bothering to take a picture as the right speaker has hot glue drop going down the grill that I can't get off......so they're kinda ugly.  But they look exactly like these except black (same model).

 

ANYWAY....just wanted to share that I'm still not giving up on these projects yet.  I was able to take apart the right speaker with the volume knob, and redo the solder on that potentiometer, and now....like magic, they work perfectly again!  I can live with the little hot glue dribble on the grill (not my doing), considering they were $12 at the thrift shop and a perfect match for an older rig.  Happy day!

 

Sometime soon, this week....I'll be able to start (again) on the 939 and Socket A rigs to see what all I damaged with the messed up molex splitters.

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

On 11/07/2022 at 02:28, pioneerisloud said:

Sometime soon, this week....I'll be able to start (again) on the 939 and Socket A

Looking forward to see what you can do with the socket A rig. 

 

 

[pio]

7 hours ago, Storm-Chaser said:

Looking forward to see what you can do with the socket A rig. 

 

 

Turns out, the molex extensions I ordered won't be here till next week.  Not a big deal, ordered from modmymods, so I trust they'll actually be wired correctly.  So....next week I can start on the old ones again.

 

UPDATE:

Absolutely HUGE thank you to @Sir Beregond!!!!!  Got a huge box in the mail today.  Out came 2x HD5770's that I'll use on the second Socket 939 rig for crossfire....instead of using my precious G92 cards.  Also, his old possibly broken GTX 970, which if that works is an okay upgrade for my kiddo's rig (part of the collection too, but wrong GPU still).

 

Right now I'm running DDU to get kiddo's old drivers out of there, and going to run some serious stress tests on the GTX 970 to see how it's doing.  Re-paste if needed.  We'll see how broken it really was, if any at all.  He did mention possibly just a driver problem.....  *shrugs  If not, I can always put his old GTX 960 4GB back in his rig.

 

[Sir Beregond]

Looking forward to seeing them in action! Way better use than sitting in my closet. 

[pio]

33 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

Looking forward to seeing them in action! Way better use than sitting in my closet. 

As far as I can tell, the GTX 970 is functional (so far anyway).  Ran 10 runs of Valley, peak temps of about 80*C.  So, probably needs a re-grease, but....that can wait till I get more MX-4 in.  Not going to put liquid metal on it......

 

Kiddo's rig (Ryzen 2600, 16GB B-die, and now that GTX 970) is back in his room, hopefully without issue until I get the grease in.  We'll see.

[Avacado]

Just now, pioneerisloud said:

As far as I can tell, the GTX 970 is functional (so far anyway).  Ran 10 runs of Valley, peak temps of about 80*C.  So, probably needs a re-grease, but....that can wait till I get more MX-4 in.  Not going to put liquid metal on it......

 

Kiddo's rig (Ryzen 2600, 16GB B-die, and now that GTX 970) is back in his room, hopefully without issue until I get the grease in.  We'll see.

Had the same 970. Lasted a long time till it didnt. It was the first card i ever baked to try and fix. Did not help...

[pio]

1 minute ago, Avacado said:

Had the same 970. Lasted a long time till it didnt. It was the first card i ever baked to try and fix. Did not help...

Well, the "proper" card for his build in my opinion would be a Vega64.  Unfortunately, prices are still a tad too high for my taste to pull the trigger on one of those yet.  Worst case, if it doesn't work, I still have his old GTX 960 I can pop back in there no problem.  I just figured, hey.....GTX 970 is an upgrade, and if it works, then it works.    

[schuck6566]

9 hours ago, pioneerisloud said:

Well, the "proper" card for his build in my opinion would be a Vega64.  Unfortunately, prices are still a tad too high for my taste to pull the trigger on one of those yet.  Worst case, if it doesn't work, I still have his old GTX 960 I can pop back in there no problem.  I just figured, hey.....GTX 970 is an upgrade, and if it works, then it works.    

I don't run the evga software with my wife's gtx 950 on Windows 10 so can't say if there's any issue there, BUT my MSI GTX 970 had issues with the MSI software for the card with Windows 10 because they changed support to another software for the RGB stuff with the 1000 series cards and it made background cpu usage up to 20% at idle with the MSI software running with my 970.

When I build here a better rig(currently a i7 2700)that will support Win 11 I'll see about upgrading her card also.   Probably get me a better 1 and giver her my RTX 2700.

[Sir Beregond]

For clarification, was my wife's 970. She claimed it would occasionally crash the screen/black screen. I could never replicate on other rigs so always assumed it was driver related and that the card was fine, but didn't know 100% for sure, so heavily discounted from what they are going for on eBay lol.

 

We ended up replacing it with just a 1660 we got on the cheap at Micro Center in Oct on 2020, literally right before the fun started with shortages. She's due for a real/full computer upgrade in a couple months.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Sir Beregond

[pio]

9 hours ago, schuck6566 said:

I don't run the evga software with my wife's gtx 950 on Windows 10 so can't say if there's any issue there, BUT my MSI GTX 970 had issues with the MSI software for the card with Windows 10 because they changed support to another software for the RGB stuff with the 1000 series cards and it made background cpu usage up to 20% at idle with the MSI software running with my 970.

When I build here a better rig(currently a i7 2700)that will support Win 11 I'll see about upgrading her card also.   Probably get me a better 1 and giver her my RTX 2700.

Yeah, see I'm weird.....I install the driver and call it a day usually for GPU's.  With the invent of RSR and FSR, framerate caps in the drivers, and things like that....I'll now go in and mess around in the driver.  But I always try my hardest to steer clear of external apps.

 

 

9 hours ago, Sir Beregond said:

For clarification, was my wife's 970. She claimed it would occasionally crash the screen/black screen. I could never replicate on other rigs so always assumed it was driver related and that the card was fine, but didn't know 100% for sure, so heavily discounted from what they are going for on eBay lol.

 

We ended up replacing it with just a 1660 we got on the cheap at Micro Center in Oct on 2020, literally right before the fun started with shortages. She's due for a real/full computer upgrade in a couple months.

It's been playing games all day today in kiddo's rig, no problems so far.   He really appreciates it.  It does seem to make the difference on some games between playable and not playable at 1080p (on his TV) with higher settings.  He's 7, so he doesn't fully understand the settings and stuff, but he goes, "Wow dad, that looks a LOT better!" when I fired up his Slime Rancher and ESO earlier showing him the higher settings.

[Sir Beregond]

12 minutes ago, pioneerisloud said:

It's been playing games all day today in kiddo's rig, no problems so far.   He really appreciates it.  It does seem to make the difference on some games between playable and not playable at 1080p (on his TV) with higher settings.  He's 7, so he doesn't fully understand the settings and stuff, but he goes, "Wow dad, that looks a LOT better!" when I fired up his Slime Rancher and ESO earlier showing him the higher settings.

I am so happy to hear that!

 

Yeah depending on the game, definitely ranges from a noticeable improvement to double the performance over a 960 if I recall.

 

Edit: And yeah would definitely recommend a re-paste. Especially those 5770's. I never got a chance to take them apart and do it myself. They've been in the parts closet a long, long time now. I think I pulled them out of use in 2012. Whenever I got my 670 which bit the dust.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Sir Beregond

[pio]

20 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

I am so happy to hear that!

 

Yeah depending on the game, definitely ranges from a noticeable improvement to double the performance over a 960 if I recall.

 

Edit: And yeah would definitely recommend a re-paste. Especially those 5770's. I never got a chance to take them apart and do it myself. They've been in the parts closet a long, long time now. I think I pulled them out of use in 2012. Whenever I got my 670 which bit the dust.

Yeah, I'll be ordering a few tubes of MX-4 on payday, I've got quite a few older cards that desperately need a re-paste, those 5770's included.  My poor 2900XT gets dangerously hot, to the point I went ahead and shelved it.  Same with my 3870 and 4890.  5870, 6970, 7970 all probably need it too, but they were at least under 90*C loads lol.  I've yet to properly test anything older than those yet, but my older cards than those listed PROBABLY need a re-paste too lol.

Edited July 15, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[pio]

Edited out, issue has been resolved.

 

With the above said, I'm not hard to find if anyone wants updates. I expect the rest of the builds to finally be coming to a finish soon after 2 long years of hard work and thousands of dollars. After that, benching!

Edited July 19, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Avacado]

Woah, woah, woah. I don't know what happened, but please don't do that. We love your updates. Shoot me a PM if you have not gotten a hold of @ENTERPRISE

[Sir Beregond]

I don't know what happened, but you're a good guy, would hate to see you leave.

[pio]

I've sent you both a PM.  I don't want to leave, nor do I have any intention of actually leaving.  I love this site and everybody on it.  Even the guy I'm having an issue with, I don't have hard feelings with.  He's a good guy, and he posts some great stuff here.

 

With that said, I'm dropping this part of the conversation in the thread.  Avacado made a good point, should be via PM.  

Edited July 18, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[pio]

Update: (Sorry for double posting)

 

Molex extensions should be arriving later today, so hopefully with any luck I'll have an update soonish, later today or tomorrow (haven't slept yet, was gaming lol).  I'm hoping to have the second Skt 939 build with 5770 crossfire up and running later today (7-18), and with any luck by 7-19 I should have a damage report on the "newer" Skt A build that I already sent power through those faulty molex splitters.  We'll see how it goes, I have two vehicles that I need to be tuning up this week too, my own Jeep and my grandpa's truck.  Probably going to skip mine for now, his needs it more.  Anyway, just wanted to at least update ya'll with what's going on over here.

[pio]

UPDATE!:

No picture update yet, although I do have some messy pictures I COULD in theory share with ya'll if you wanted to see.......

 

The second Socket 939 is alive and........well, its alive.  Kinda......

 

My A8N32 SLI Deluxe motherboard wasn't happy at all in the system, and I really needed that board to utilize the full 8GB of ECC DDR400 I had on hand for it.  For some odd reason, I couldn't get my Xigmatek S1283 to mount properly on it, as such the CPU kept overheating and the whole system would shut off.  On top of that.....it absolutely REFUSED to retain BIOS settings, even with a new CR2032 battery installed.  I did try a new jumper for the CLRTC jumper, but that didn't seem to help any either.  The RAID card I was intending on using, was also not found.  So I do, unfortunately, think that board is not 100% functional.  I could be wrong, it could've been a number of other things.  It DOES turn on, and it does sit in BIOS just fine.  It also recognized all drives except the 2 that I found dead.

 

HOWEVER.......

My A8NSLI Premium board actually IS working, although its got some kinks to work out on it still as well.  Unfortunately, I cannot do HD5770 crossfire as I wanted in either board.  I forgot.....NF4 SLI chipset, they do NOT like having an HD5000 series GPU installed in the primary x16 slot.  Period.  Not sure why, but I recall having this same issue trying to get my HD5870 to work in the last one with these boards.  The CPU is still running hot, but its running and currently installing Windows 7 x64 to it.  The RAID card is working.  I assume the sound card is working (its still installing ATM).  The GPU in the bottom slot (GTS 250 1GB for now) is working, although I do think I'm going to trade it out for the Sapphire HD5770.  This isn't necessarily a negative, as the 5770 crossfire would've been way too much GPU power for a Skt 939 dual core anyway, even overclocked stupid high.  I figure HD5770 should dump less heat than my HD4890 I have sitting around, so that might help keep the system a TAD cooler anyway.  This will also free up a few more PCIe slots, a 1x and the top 16x....I could in theory toss in a wifi card in the 1x, and use the top slot for my Hauppage 2250 TV tuner card.  The goal of THIS build was to make a 100% usable old rig, so I don't have to bust out the "museum" pieces.  I did find a DVD Burner that has failed, so that's a sad face.  I'll have to order another of those, but I'm kinda holding off on orders until I find out exactly what all parts are dead.  So far, one SSD and one DVDRW drive.  I do believe I'll need to get some more MX-4 or maybe MX-5 in, and try a reseat.....as stock voltage, the CPU is still overheating and failing, and that just shouldn't be happening.  I've had this same CPU and board at 3.1GHz, 1.50v before stable.  The RAM.......the RAM isn't happy either, its at DDR200 speeds right now, 2x2GB of ECC.  So.....I'm going to have to find somebody to trade 4x1GB of DDR400 with for these 4x2GB sticks (and maybe my A8N32 / Opteron 165?)...hint hint, anybody reading.  Or, I might have to eventually buy a 4x1 kit off ebay or something.

 

Either way, wanted to give ya'll an update.  I'm making progress.  The second 939 rig WILL live 100% very soon!  Once I have this one dialed in, it'll be down to one Ryzen 1000 series system (the one I have isn't mine), MAYBE a Skt 754 if I get a little squirrely, two Socket A's (next on the chopping block since I have everything), and my Socket 7.  If I get squirrely enough to do the 754, I'll probably toss in a K5 build too.  I'm working on a few deals for some other cases, just in case.....since my Chieftec I'm not sure what to do with it as the front panel is still broken.  My K6 case isn't the prettiest, but really just needs paint.  Hmmmm, lots to think about.

 

If anybody wants to see the messy progress, or a small preview of what this rig might end up looking like, please let me know.  I'll be happy to post a few teasers up.  I just don't have my phone on me right now, I snapped a few.....but its charging right now and I'm absolutely exhausted.  Did grandpa's truck today too. -_-

 

~pio

Edited July 19, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[pio]

Another minor update from above:

 

Second Socket 939 rig is now 100% functional, ish.  I have Windows installed to a RAID0 array of SSD's on it.  It's found all the drives.  Looking at the missing list of drivers, it does look like all the expansion cards were found.  I am missing RAM for it and TIM.  So....I went on an ebay shopping spree and bought it a new case (offered a lowball offer on a black Chieftec Dragon and dude accepted, ty to that dude!).  So the 939 will be transplanted into the black Chieftec Dragon case for a little better airflow, its being suffocated in the case its in.  But that then left me another era appropriate case.  So.....I bought a full Socket 754 kit too and a Radeon X800 Pro AGP card too. -_-

 

Specs of the 939 rig as is thus far:

• EVGA 600BQ PSU
• Chieftec Dragon (black) case (ordered)
• Asus A8N-SLI Premium Motherboard
• Athlon x2 4200+ Toledo (my chip that does 3.1GHz)
• RAM (ordered) 4x1GB of Kingston Value DDR400, because 333 is best you can get with 4 sticks anyway
• Xigmatek S1283 CPU cooler
• 2x 64GB HP SSD's in a RAID0 on onboard RAID
• 1x 2TB WD Blue 3.5" HDD (was brand new when bought, never used yet)
• Sapphire HD5770 1GB
• TP Link Wireless N 300 card
• Hauppage 2250 TV tuner card
• Asus X-Fi Xtreme Music Sound card
• Samsung DVDRW with Lightscribe (the Samsung DVD-ROM + CDRW I had in there's dead, so only one optical)
• Iomega ZIP 250
• CF Card Reader
• NZXT 6 fan controller
• Floppy Drive

 

It's got a lot of things to make it a "comfortable" rig to daily drive for old rig purposes, and its got tons of extra stuff it didn't need, like the CF reader and whatnot.....I'm building it that way for a reason.  The intent is to be able to daily drive it if wanted or needed, game on it too, and I can also use it to make ISO's and other installation media for the much older rigs that are coming.  I'm a little saddened I couldn't run the HD5770 crossfire.  I did try my GTS 250 1GB SLI in it, but those cards were too big to use the onboard SATA plugs....and I still wasn't successful booting off my Adaptec RAID card, so I pulled that.

 

The Socket 754 kit I bought was just to fill this other case up, as I've GOT to put something in this case, because it was my first EVER case as an "enthusiast" when I joined OCN and had a 4.5GHz Celeron 352 in it.  So yeah, I absolutely had to have something for that case.   It's just a generic ULI chipset Gigabyte 754 motherboard, Athlon64 3400+ I think it was, stock heatpipe AMD cooler, 3x1GB generic DDR400, and I'll put my Radeon X1950XT in there with it (AGP).  I already have a spare Corsair CX450m PSU, so that should work perfectly for the 754 rig since Socket 754 and ULI chipset, I doubt I'll be overclocking it anyway.  Was too expensive to find a good NF3 board with flat caps.  The X800 Pro will then go into the Socket A rig below that, the Athlon XP.  

Edited July 20, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[pio]

I was trying to update the thread earlier.  Ordered a Ryzen 1400 kit too.  Nothing fancy, but I am missing a Ryzen 1000 setup of my own still.  Ryzen 1400, ASRock B350m, and 16GB of I think it was PNY DDR4-2666 on the way for that too.  Wasn't too terribly expensive, pretty sure it was right around the $100 mark or so for all of that.  Already had everything else for the rig, so why not?  I bought the other parts thinking I'd put a Haswell i7 in that build for my son for school, but nah, might as well do a missing Ryzen.   Stupid paypal credit calling my name.  I swear ebaying should be considered an addiction too. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

On 20/07/2022 at 02:16, pioneerisloud said:

Another minor update from above:

 

Second Socket 939 rig is now 100% functional, ish.  I have Windows installed to a RAID0 array of SSD's on it.  It's found all the drives.  Looking at the missing list of drivers, it does look like all the expansion cards were found.  I am missing RAM for it and TIM.  So....I went on an ebay shopping spree and bought it a new case (offered a lowball offer on a black Chieftec Dragon and dude accepted, ty to that dude!).  So the 939 will be transplanted into the black Chieftec Dragon case for a little better airflow, its being suffocated in the case its in.  But that then left me another era appropriate case.  So.....I bought a full Socket 754 kit too and a Radeon X800 Pro AGP card too. -_-

 

Specs of the 939 rig as is thus far:

• EVGA 600BQ PSU
• Chieftec Dragon (black) case (ordered)
• Asus A8N-SLI Premium Motherboard
• Athlon x2 4200+ Toledo (my chip that does 3.1GHz)
• RAM (ordered) 4x1GB of Kingston Value DDR400, because 333 is best you can get with 4 sticks anyway
• Xigmatek S1283 CPU cooler
• 2x 64GB HP SSD's in a RAID0 on onboard RAID
• 1x 2TB WD Blue 3.5" HDD (was brand new when bought, never used yet)
• Sapphire HD5770 1GB
• TP Link Wireless N 300 card
• Hauppage 2250 TV tuner card
• Asus X-Fi Xtreme Music Sound card
• Samsung DVDRW with Lightscribe (the Samsung DVD-ROM + CDRW I had in there's dead, so only one optical)
• Iomega ZIP 250
• CF Card Reader
• NZXT 6 fan controller
• Floppy Drive

 

It's got a lot of things to make it a "comfortable" rig to daily drive for old rig purposes, and its got tons of extra stuff it didn't need, like the CF reader and whatnot.....I'm building it that way for a reason.  The intent is to be able to daily drive it if wanted or needed, game on it too, and I can also use it to make ISO's and other installation media for the much older rigs that are coming.  I'm a little saddened I couldn't run the HD5770 crossfire.  I did try my GTS 250 1GB SLI in it, but those cards were too big to use the onboard SATA plugs....and I still wasn't successful booting off my Adaptec RAID card, so I pulled that.

 

The Socket 754 kit I bought was just to fill this other case up, as I've GOT to put something in this case, because it was my first EVER case as an "enthusiast" when I joined OCN and had a 4.5GHz Celeron 352 in it.  So yeah, I absolutely had to have something for that case.   It's just a generic ULI chipset Gigabyte 754 motherboard, Athlon64 3400+ I think it was, stock heatpipe AMD cooler, 3x1GB generic DDR400, and I'll put my Radeon X1950XT in there with it (AGP).  I already have a spare Corsair CX450m PSU, so that should work perfectly for the 754 rig since Socket 754 and ULI chipset, I doubt I'll be overclocking it anyway.  Was too expensive to find a good NF3 board with flat caps.  The X800 Pro will then go into the Socket A rig below that, the Athlon XP.  

Think you can run Windows Vista with that 939 build? Most people have forgotten about it, but i still think the looks of Vista set it apart from most of Microsoft's average and boring releases. Granted, it was horrific when it first came out but SP2 solved most of that. 

[pio]

Just now, Storm-Chaser said:

Think you can run Windows Vista with that 939 build? Most people have forgotten about it, but i still think the looks of Vista set it apart from most of Microsoft's average and boring releases. Granted, it was horrific when it first came out but SP2 solved most of that. 

Absolutely I could.  I have 7 on the working 939 now, I ran Vista on them back in the day.  As of right now, I'm just trying to make sure everything WORKS first.  I do believe the finished 939 probably will end up with Vista x64 on it.  Still kind of scatterbrained on what OS for what rig to be honest lol, but yes there will be Vista rigs.

 

The one I'm playing with right now (I accidentally built 2 939's), the goal with it is to be able to use it daily because I miss 939, and to be able to utilize it for working on the even older rigs.  Making ISO's, burning discs, copying files to ZIP, or even preparing CF cards (what I'll be using for OS drives), whatever I need it for.  It'll also have my Hauppage TV tuner in it, so I can use it to rip VHS tapes.    Phenom 9850 would probably be a "later" Vista build.  Socket 754 Athlon64 is more suited for Windows XP I think.  But yeah, like I said, still scatterbrained on what software for what rig so far.  

[pio]

Disclaimer, I am now cross posting these builds on 2 forums, here and another as of 7-22-22.  I will not link, nor advertise between the 2.  Has nothing to do with anything, other than having an additional source of assistance and sharing it with some other friends.  This in no way changes my opinions on EHW, or my love for helping our community here.  I am not doing any of these builds for profit, its all for myself and my kid.  These older systems are long forgotten, and I'm going to be needing all the help I can get to make them functional in terms of advice and part picking.

 

I just wanted to say that for liability reasons / legal reasons whatever.  I feel bad cross posting when the EHW / OCN community has been my home since 2007.  But guys, these old rigs are hard!  The other forum I'm posting on, again, I will not link, is more suited for the old systems and a small community I was already a part of anyway years ago.  I know this sounds a little rough with a few of my past comments in here, but I promise, the issue I was having was resolved.  This disclaimer was just because I felt bad cross posting it somewhere else.

------------------------------

I will of course, be continuing the build log and I've got some fantastic ideas on how I can showcase these once they're all at 100%.  All the orders I just did recently should start arriving Monday.  So hopefully we'll see the second 939 up, a Ryzen 1400 up, and with any luck a Socket A rig running live very very soon.  That will leave the other Socket A and the really old K6 rig left, which brings me to......

 

Also, a slight update, I contacted a local body shop yesterday.  They were willing to work on PC cases, they want me to bring down my Chieftec Dragon and my other old beige box for the K6 build and get a quote going.  They're booked out until October.  I'm not going to build these rigs ugly.

Edited July 22, 2022 by pioneerisloud