Optimal sound card/audio setup w Z-5500 Logitech sound system

[pio]

Just now, Storm-Chaser said:

Alright. 

 

So I can sell my Z625 sub and my z5500 sub and probably make back $150 or something like that. 

And retain the small speakers though? Do they have any redeeming value in a new custom system?

 

That sounds like more fun anyway, and I will be able to customize it exactly to my needs / specifications. 

I mean you can keep them and use them. But they're still going to be limited by their physical size. A 2" driver can only move so much air to make sound. 

 

Dayton b452 air speakers are inexpensive and sound fantastic. The regular b452 speakers are like $30 a set. There's more expensive speakers too of course, I'm just talking low end of the budget. Up to you on that one. 

 

If you are just after thump, a receiver made in the last 10 years should do the trick from any good brand. Pioneer, Yamaha, onkyo, denon, all good. That will handle the majority of what you need. Speakers, add to taste lol. Subwoofer, you can't go wrong with the Dayton subs. Pick the size you can fit. They have 8" up to 15". The bigger ones get lower than the little ones. 

4 minutes ago, Storm-Chaser said:

 

[pio]

I will resay this again though too, kind of as a warning lmao. Audio gets addicting. If you're happy with it, enjoy it. We can always help you chase decibels and proper frequencies. Absolutely. Depends on the budget. 

 

Expect to spend about $300 ish on the lower end to get started if buying everything. $150 for a sub, $100 for amp / receiver, and $50 ish on speakers. 

[Storm-Chaser]

So Im still curious about the subwoofer configuration. Seems like it would be beneficial to have two subs? A small one and a big one so you can cover the entire range? Kind of like what I am doing now with these Logitech subs?

[pio]

6 minutes ago, Storm-Chaser said:

So Im still curious about the subwoofer configuration. Seems like it would be beneficial to have two subs? A small one and a big one so you can cover the entire range? Kind of like what I am doing now with these Logitech subs?

One sub should be capable of the full range itself. Neither of the Logitech subs do the full range since they're tuned to be boomy and loud. The purpose of adding another sub IS typically to fill in frequency gaps, but you typically see people using the same sub twice so they don't interfere with each other. Frequency gaps with normal equipment occurs from room placement. The size and shape of your room has just as much to do with audio as the speakers and subs do. 

[Snakecharmed]

Since the subs keep coming into focus, please get them on the floor. They're a problem on the tables, and I don't think comparing their performance in their current locations is all that meaningful.

 

I didn't directly mention it in my post although several others weren't hesitant to point out the Logitech speakers aren't it. Assembling your own system is going to yield far better results than strangely tuned Logitech speakers. Not only do you get to put together a custom-tailored system to meet your needs, you get to learn a lot more about audio equipment and how the different pieces of the puzzle fit together. You'll also get to experience bass below 33 Hz, because you don't know what you're missing with the Logitech subs.

 

Audio equipment isn't quite like computer hardware. The difference is that upgrade paths are created through your hearing ability rather than newer and faster CPUs and GPUs and the hungry apps that demand their processing power.

 

I would sell all the Logitech stuff as the two complete speaker sets they are and start over entirely. Given your desk and side table arrangement, I would also go with a receiver because you don't have desk space concerns like I do, which is why I have a small SMSL amp on my desk instead of something the size of the Onkyo receiver in my family room.

 

As far as one sub versus two, two subs are beneficial when you have multiple desired seating positions in a room and a need to level out the bass response in those locations. However, the two subs should ideally be the same or at least be carefully tuned for a balanced response, not two un-tunable subs from a powered speaker set.

 

How big is your room? My downfiring sealed 15" Rythmik is for filling an open floor plan that's effectively 40' x 16' x 9' comprising of a kitchen, breakfast area, and family room. It replaced my downfiring ported 10" that's quite honestly a bit too much for the 12' 6" square room it's in now. It's unlikely that two subs is something you need for volume (in either sense of the word).

Edited February 12, 2022 by Snakecharmed

[Storm-Chaser]

4 hours ago, Snakecharmed said:

Since the subs keep coming into focus, please get them on the floor. They're a problem on the tables, and I don't think comparing their performance in their current locations is all that meaningful.

 

I didn't directly mention it in my post although several others weren't hesitant to point out the Logitech speakers aren't it. Assembling your own system is going to yield far better results than strangely tuned Logitech speakers. Not only do you get to put together a custom-tailored system to meet your needs, you get to learn a lot more about audio equipment and how the different pieces of the puzzle fit together. You'll also get to experience bass below 33 Hz, because you don't know what you're missing with the Logitech subs.

 

Audio equipment isn't quite like computer hardware. The difference is that upgrade paths are created through your hearing ability rather than newer and faster CPUs and GPUs and the hungry apps that demand their processing power.

 

I would sell all the Logitech stuff as the two complete speaker sets they are and start over entirely. Given your desk and side table arrangement, I would also go with a receiver because you don't have desk space concerns like I do, which is why I have a small SMSL amp on my desk instead of something the size of the Onkyo receiver in my family room.

 

As far as one sub versus two, two subs are beneficial when you have multiple desired seating positions in a room and a need to level out the bass response in those locations. However, the two subs should ideally be the same or at least be carefully tuned for a balanced response, not two un-tunable subs from a powered speaker set.

 

How big is your room? My downfiring sealed 15" Rythmik is for filling an open floor plan that's effectively 40' x 16' x 9' comprising of a kitchen, breakfast area, and family room. It replaced my downfiring ported 10" that's quite honestly a bit too much for the 12' 6" square room it's in now. It's unlikely that two subs is something you need for volume (in either sense of the word).

It's hard to explain... I'm on the ground floor of a cure cottage. So kind of like a basement, but on ground level. It's about 75 percent furnished/finished. It's always a little cooler downstairs than upstairs which makes for a good overclocking environment. The room has two garage doors at the front and the floor is cement, if that matters here. So to respond to your question, it's about 25' by 40' by 14'. It has particle board for a ceiling. Both walls consist of old school sheetrock followed by cinder blocks, followed by the outside layers. Yes, I notice the subs sound better on the floor but for this system I just wanted to get it all set up first and then work on sub placement later. In my limited experience, seems to work better when you have some particle board or a wooden wall in close proximity to the sub. Almost like a secondary enclosure (something approx like 4x 10 on one side of the woofer with the port aligned optimally. Does this make sense to you guys?

 

Question for you or @pioneerisloud

 

I apologize if this was already answered. 

 

Any reason I can't repurpose the Logitech subs or at least the woofer enclosures?

I was thinking of bypassing the stock amp completely and wire the Logitech woofer directly to my amplifier or whatever (directly to my future custom audio system). I mean a 10' is no joke, it really does hit hard when the right song is playing.  If the subs themselves are up to the task, I would want to capitalize on that. 

 

Or, if I cant do that, can I gut the enclosures and replace with high quality components? Figure if I already have them...

 

I also have the z5300 subwoofer just sitting here, but that would have to be dismantled with a tablesaw. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pio]

Just in case it was missed earlier too......

 

Subs are meant to fill in the lower octaves that your main speakers cannot do.  Even large tower speakers need assistance getting into the subsonic frequency range.

 

The bass from your z625 set, honestly.....should be coming from your front main speakers (or most of it).  Your front speakers SHOULD be able to get down to 80Hz with ease, and down into the 60Hz range if you can get some that do (pretty easy).  60Hz is where the z625 sub is tuned to IIRC, or somewhere around there (again been years since I've listened to a set).  The z5500 sub is closer to being "proper", but its still tuned really high at like 40Hz since it also has to cover the inadequacies of the 2" main speaker drivers.  So it doesn't extend much below about 35-40Hz.  You're missing the low lows entirely.  And your high bass is going to be accentuated to the point of being "boomy".  Not knocking it either, its a "fun" system to listen to I'm sure.

 

Proper Frequency Responses (roughly / there's opinions on these):
Subwoofer - 20Hz or lower if you can / as close to as possible - 80~120Hz or so

Front Mains / Center - 60Hz-20,000Hz (full range) (crossover around 80-120Hz)

Rears - Should be similar to front mains, but passable to have a higher crossover on these (or smaller speakers)

Your best setup z5500's (from my recollection, again I could be off a tad):
Subwoofer - 40Hz-250Hz

All satellites - 150-16,000Hz

 

You're missing sub 40Hz and above 16kHz roughly with those speakers as is.  Nothing you can do about it as its the way they were tuned and built.  You can EQ down the hot spots in the response, or EQ everything down to accentuate other spots.  But either way you're still missing the lower octave and upper octaves.  

[pio]

2 minutes ago, Storm-Chaser said:

Question for you or @pioneerisloud

 

I apologize if this was already answered. 

 

Any reason I can't repurpose the Logitech subs or at least the woofer enclosures?

I was thinking of bypassing the stock amp completely and wire the Logitech woofer directly to my amplifier or whatever (directly to my future custom audio system). I mean a 10' is no joke, it really does hit hard when the right song is playing.  If the subs themselves are up to the task, I would want to capitalize on that. 

 

Or, if I cant do that, can I gut the enclosures and replace with high quality components? Figure if I already have them...

 

I also have the z5300 subwoofer just sitting here, but that would have to be dismantled with a tablesaw. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You CAN yes.  The z5500 is a decent 10" driver inside, IIRC it was manufactured by Tang Band.  You COULD build it a new enclosure tuned lower and use either a subwoofer plate amplifier at around 250w RMS (being careful not to blow it with overpower), or a good solid desk or home theater sub amp.  Many options, but you need a dedicated "sub amp" for it to be right so you have the proper controls over its frequency.

What that enclosure would be, I would have no clue without getting the exact T/S parameters for that specific driver.  I'd take a guess and say somewhere in the realm of 1.50 cubic feet tuned for like 30Hz should work, but I could be waaaaay off too.

[Storm-Chaser]

well I have my work cut out for me but Im looking forward to this because for me, music is life. I really do want the best sound I can get.

 

Thanks again, to all. I will update this thread when new information becomes available. I probably wont be able to move on this for a month or two.

 

So 20 questions is over for now, but fair warning it may start again when I begin to build/ setup my new audio system. 

 

 

 

 

 

[pio]

13 minutes ago, Storm-Chaser said:

well I have my work cut out for me but Im looking forward to this because for me, music is life. I really do want the best sound I can get.

 

Thanks again, to all. I will update this thread when new information becomes available. I probably wont be able to move on this for a month or two.

 

So 20 questions is over for now, but fair warning it may start again when I begin to build/ setup my new audio system. 

 

 

 

 

 

No worries, we're always here to bounce ideas off of / ask questions.  The joys of a forum community.

 

If you're serious about doing a different enclosure, I will just advise you, do some reading and youtube videos on different box designs and what all it takes to tune them.  There's a LOT to think about when doing an enclosure design, so much so that I gave up on it a long time ago and left it to the professionals lol.  It's not hard, just a lot of math involved to get it just right.  There's magnitudes of ways you CAN improve that z5500 subwoofer by just giving it different power and enclosure.  I'm just not sure if it'll be worthwhile without the T/S parameters of it, dunno if those are available anywhere.

[Storm-Chaser]

If for some reason I cant use the z5500 woofer in my custom audio system, I was thinking of pulling the trigger on something like this... Check out the specs below, is this particular subwoofer going to be "compatible" with my soon to be future custom audio project?

 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[pio]

There's soooooo many better options than Kicker even for car audio.  Go look up the Dayton Ultimax.   That's just one example.  Many of them.

[Storm-Chaser]

3 minutes ago, pioneerisloud said:

There's soooooo many better options than Kicker even for car audio.  Go look up the Dayton Ultimax.   That's just one example.  Many of them.

But Im curious spec wise, I know you've already broken it down for me but there are alot of other details I want to familiarize myself with. Also, can this sub be used in a home theatre situation / custom audio build bc its clearly designed for a car. 

[UltraMega]

Sorry if I missed something but I just want to add my sound blaster z gives me a lot of subwoofer control. More than my PioneerIsLoud approved receiver. 

 

You may want to look at sound cards with good bass management options but again, sorry if I missed something in the thread. Didn't read everything. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by UltraMega

[pio]

2 hours ago, Storm-Chaser said:

But Im curious spec wise, I know you've already broken it down for me but there are alot of other details I want to familiarize myself with. Also, can this sub be used in a home theatre situation / custom audio build bc its clearly designed for a car. 

There's a lot to go through with it, you look at the size, power ratings, frequency response, proper enclosure sizes, and the T/S specs can tell you a lot about a specific driver.  It's been a while since I've shopped for subwoofers properly living in an apartment, but those are good things to research first.  The T/S specs is the big one, I forget which one it is but one of them will tell you if a driver is best suited for a sealed enclosure or a ported enclosure.

To answer your second question, moving air is moving air.  I've used "house subs" in the car before and vice versa.  The biggest difference is the resistance, car speakers in general are 4ohm and home speakers are generally 8ohm.  A lot of subwoofers are 4ohm anyway though even in a house setup.  The biggest thing when shopping for anything audio is power, followed by the resistance and recommendations on the amp.  If you have 100w RMS @ 4ohm and you put in an 8ohm speaker, you'll only have approximately 50w RMS available instead of the full 100 (rough estimate).

 

1 hour ago, UltraMega said:

Sorry if I missed something but I just want to add my sound blaster z gives me a lot of subwoofer control. More than my PioneerIsLoud approved receiver. 

 

You may want to loom at sou d cards with good bass management options but again, sorry I'd I misses something in the thread. Didn't read everything. 

I recommended a sound card as my first recommendation here.  The problem here isn't the source though since he's using optical.  The problem is that he's looking to upgrade the z5500 + z625 set.  As I've stated SEVERAL TIMES OVER in this very thread, yes a sound card WILL give some missing features to the Logitech sets, however all you're doing is replacing one DAC for another.  And if YOUR receiver is lacking subwoofer crossover controls, that's on you.  Every mainstream receiver released in probably the last 15+ years, from reputable brands has that very basic feature.  There's only 2 controls you "need" for a subwoofer.  That is gain and crossover.  If you're bass boosting, you're doing it wrong mate......that's generally a sign you need a different sub and possibly more power.  Also a good way to blow speakers.

Edited February 12, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[UltraMega]

30 minutes ago, pioneerisloud said:

If you'd learn how to read,

IDK why you always gotta so be rude. I was trying to be nice by giving you creds and differing to the better judgment here. Just adding my two cents without reading every comment. 

 

Had a couple typos, fixed. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by UltraMega

[pio]

18 minutes ago, UltraMega said:

IDK why you always gotta so be rude. I was trying to be nice by giving you creds and differing to the better judgment here. Just adding my two cents without reading every comment. 

 

Had a couple typos, fixed. 

I read what you had written as rude after previous bad feelings.  My apologies.  We did go over all of this on page 1 though.  

Edited that part out. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

we can all get along here. I see both of your points. Sometimes you have to skim a thread, just the nature of the beast.

 

 

 

 

[UltraMega]

This

Edited February 12, 2022 by UltraMega

[UltraMega]

double post

Edited February 12, 2022 by UltraMega

[Storm-Chaser]

8 hours ago, UltraMega said:

This

Very interesting. I will look into this avenue as well.

 

And thanks for telling me to put subs on the floor because that made a huge difference. Now I can feel the beat in my chest if Im in the firing line. Im actually really liking this system now that the subs are on the ground.

 

@pioneerisloudDo you really only think my system as it stands right now is putting out less than 200W? 

 

I can see Logitech exaggerating by a couple hundred watts but damn that seems like a lowball to me. 

[Snakecharmed]

I can't keep up with this thread.

 

13 hours ago, Storm-Chaser said:

It's hard to explain... I'm on the ground floor of a cure cottage. So kind of like a basement, but on ground level. It's about 75 percent furnished/finished. It's always a little cooler downstairs than upstairs which makes for a good overclocking environment. The room has two garage doors at the front and the floor is cement, if that matters here. So to respond to your question, it's about 25' by 40' by 14'. It has particle board for a ceiling. Both walls consist of old school sheetrock followed by cinder blocks, followed by the outside layers. Yes, I notice the subs sound better on the floor but for this system I just wanted to get it all set up first and then work on sub placement later. In my limited experience, seems to work better when you have some particle board or a wooden wall in close proximity to the sub. Almost like a secondary enclosure (something approx like 4x 10 on one side of the woofer with the port aligned optimally. Does this make sense to you guys?

 

Room size and construction

Are there other seating positions you want to consider optimizing other than right in front of your computer? Obviously, with the size of the room being what it is, if you want to optimize bass response in more areas than just in front of your computer, then perhaps another sub does make sense if you're using the whole room. You wouldn't need to buy two subs at once though. You can start with one and see how it performs. If you just use the area in front of your computer, then one good sub is all you'll need.

 

As far as bass response, there's a few things to note. The floor being concrete may make your sub not feel as full even though the sound waves are bouncing off a harder surface, but you would benefit from the sub being placed closer to a corner rather than it basically being out in the open and far from any reflective surface. That's basically what's happening when you describe that secondary enclosure.

 

You don't really want all the surfaces around you to be hard either. Some surfaces around the immediate listening area that can provide some sound damping like an area rug, acoustic panels, or corner bass traps would be beneficial to tame some of the extra wave reflection. From what I can perceive in the videos, keeping in mind that recorded video and YouTube compression doesn't provide a pure representation of the sound in your room, there seems to be a bit of a boomy or hollow character to it currently.

 

For me, the main reason to get the subs off the tables is because anything on the tables including the table surfaces themselves are going to be potential sources of unwanted vibration if you put the subs on them. In a room with all hard surfaces, you might not necessarily want the sub literally on the floor, but on the ground sitting on an isolation pad like the Auralex SubDude would be an improvement. They're not miracle cures, but they'll further isolate the sub and prevent vibration from other nearby hard surfaces that are not secured.

 

Kicker

I like their subs as a budget-oriented solution that are a significant improvement over factory equipment in a car. I have a 10" Kicker CompC replacing a stock subwoofer on the rear package tray of one of my cars, so it's effectively in an infinite baffle type of enclosure. With heavy application of Stinger RoadKill Ultimate on the tray around the sub and being driven by bridged rear channels of a Kenwood Excelon amp, it sounds great. As part of an effort to replace all factory audio gear and keeping all of it in the factory locations, it's perfect. Once you start spending a bit more and think about building an enclosure though, I think there are better options than Kicker especially if you're looking at closer to $200 per sub. However, I will say that I do like their shallow-mount options, which the Kicker CompRT is. That shouldn't be much of a consideration for home audio though.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Snakecharmed

[Snakecharmed]

10 minutes ago, Storm-Chaser said:

And thanks for telling me to put subs on the floor because that made a huge difference. Now I can feel the beat in my chest if Im in the firing line. Im actually really liking this system now that the subs are on the ground.

 

No problem, and that was me, not UltraMega.

[Storm-Chaser]

13 minutes ago, Snakecharmed said:

 

No problem, and that was me, not UltraMega.

LOL I just rolled the dice, kinda hoping I would luck out and hit the probabilities! I wasn't exactly sure who posted that and didn't want to spend time backtracking. 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[pio]

1 hour ago, Storm-Chaser said:

Very interesting. I will look into this avenue as well.

 

And thanks for telling me to put subs on the floor because that made a huge difference. Now I can feel the beat in my chest if Im in the firing line. Im actually really liking this system now that the subs are on the ground.

 

@pioneerisloudDo you really only think my system as it stands right now is putting out less than 200W? 

 

I can see Logitech exaggerating by a couple hundred watts but damn that seems like a lowball to me. 

Yes, you're seeing less than 200w RMS total as is right now.  Power isn't everything, but it helps you get there.  Speaker and amplifier manufacturers severely overrate their equipment power handling and output.  Almost all of the cheaper manufacturers do.  It gets fun when you start getting equipment that's underrated.  Example, the Dayton Ultimax subs I mentioned earlier, they're rated at somewhere around 500-600w RMS each sub.  I've sent approximately 2700w RMS to a pair of the 10's and they lived fine.  Now, take a look at the Kicker subs again.  (Note, they actually do sound pretty good).  400w RMS on a Kicker 12" sub is about all it'll take, and that's exactly what its rated for.  You try to shove 500 or 600w down the Kicker, it'll smoke itself.

Edited February 12, 2022 by pioneerisloud