Optimal sound card/audio setup w Z-5500 Logitech sound system

[pio]

12 hours ago, Storm-Chaser said:

New center speaker for my computer audio system. What do you thinkg? @pioneerisloud

 

 

Specs:

 

Starting to come along nicely mate!  You're definitely going to notice a difference in the sounds between your fronts and center if you still are going to be using the Logitechs as fronts.  But no big deal, just make sure to pick up matching fronts later.  

 

For the fronts, there's matching 6.5" bookshelf speakers that would go fantastically with that.  They also sell tower speakers that would match it beautifully too (6.5" or bigger).  Alternatively as well, you can buy 2 more of those center speakers that match for fronts too, a lot of people do that for the added woofer that the centers have over the bookshelfs.  Obviously you'd stand them vertical to use them as front Left / Right, and the actual center would be horizontal.  Any of those 3 options / ideas would work fantastically, just depends on your budget and what you're looking for.  Bigger speakers obviously will tend to be more expensive.

 

For the rears (later on), size won't matter as much.  It's MOSTLY the tweeter that'll be important to match up in the rears.  So for rears, even the small 4" bookshelf speakers are acceptable there.  If you REALLY want to, you can match them, but you really don't have to as most of your bass frequencies will be coming from the front and from the subwoofer anyway.  This would be the LAST priority in the build, as your surround speakers don't really add a whole lot of detail, its more just a rear "fill" so you get the experience that they're there.  Having a matching sound signature WILL make a difference, but its not anywhere near as big a difference as the fronts and center.  If your surrounds are cut off at say for example 100Hz, and the fronts and center at 60Hz....that's perfectly fine (4" rears / 6.5" fronts).

 

The reason why the tweeter is what's so important is because EVERY tweeter sounds different to some degree.  When you're using surround sound, that slightly different sound WILL make a difference as things zoom around the room.

 

I think you're going to be super pleased once you get that center in and get a chance to hear it.  Even moreso once you get matching fronts to go with it.  

-------------------------------------------------

Consider me pretty jelly too.  I absolutely love my PC sound setup, its always a pleasure to listen to.  But man, do I miss having my surround setup I had before.  Mine wasn't any better than yours, I'd say equal to or less than.  But yeah, I really REALLY miss having good quality speakers around.  I can't wait to get out of my apartment!  LOL

 

For reference, my "best" setup I have currently is:
Micca MB42 (modded into MB42x) 4" bookshelf speakers

Pioneer 6.5" soundbar subwoofer

SMSL AD18 speaker / headphones amp

Fosi Audio 300w subwoofer amp

 

So needless to say, yours kicks the living snot out of mine currently.  Just how I like to help people.

Edited July 4, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

On 04/07/2022 at 01:32, pioneerisloud said:

 

Starting to come along nicely mate!  You're definitely going to notice a difference in the sounds between your fronts and center if you still are going to be using the Logitechs as fronts.  But no big deal, just make sure to pick up matching fronts later.  

 

For the fronts, there's matching 6.5" bookshelf speakers that would go fantastically with that.  They also sell tower speakers that would match it beautifully too (6.5" or bigger).  Alternatively as well, you can buy 2 more of those center speakers that match for fronts too, a lot of people do that for the added woofer that the centers have over the bookshelfs.  Obviously you'd stand them vertical to use them as front Left / Right, and the actual center would be horizontal.  Any of those 3 options / ideas would work fantastically, just depends on your budget and what you're looking for.  Bigger speakers obviously will tend to be more expensive.

 

For the rears (later on), size won't matter as much.  It's MOSTLY the tweeter that'll be important to match up in the rears.  So for rears, even the small 4" bookshelf speakers are acceptable there.  If you REALLY want to, you can match them, but you really don't have to as most of your bass frequencies will be coming from the front and from the subwoofer anyway.  This would be the LAST priority in the build, as your surround speakers don't really add a whole lot of detail, its more just a rear "fill" so you get the experience that they're there.  Having a matching sound signature WILL make a difference, but its not anywhere near as big a difference as the fronts and center.  If your surrounds are cut off at say for example 100Hz, and the fronts and center at 60Hz....that's perfectly fine (4" rears / 6.5" fronts).

 

The reason why the tweeter is what's so important is because EVERY tweeter sounds different to some degree.  When you're using surround sound, that slightly different sound WILL make a difference as things zoom around the room.

 

I think you're going to be super pleased once you get that center in and get a chance to hear it.  Even moreso once you get matching fronts to go with it.  

-------------------------------------------------

Consider me pretty jelly too.  I absolutely love my PC sound setup, its always a pleasure to listen to.  But man, do I miss having my surround setup I had before.  Mine wasn't any better than yours, I'd say equal to or less than.  But yeah, I really REALLY miss having good quality speakers around.  I can't wait to get out of my apartment!  LOL

 

For reference, my "best" setup I have currently is:
Micca MB42 (modded into MB42x) 4" bookshelf speakers

Pioneer 6.5" soundbar subwoofer

SMSL AD18 speaker / headphones amp

Fosi Audio 300w subwoofer amp

 

So needless to say, yours kicks the living snot out of mine currently.  Just how I like to help people.

I would have been wandering in the dark like a blind man without your expert help and patience. You can indeed consider yourself the "high level architect" of this project, so in a sense you do in fact have stake in this system. The subwoofer choice was key. If that's any consolation. lol. 

 

I will get pictures up later today or tomorrow and you can see how I have it set up. Needless to say, its a very powerful center speaker that I've heard can handle 4X the RMS rating with ease. Not that I am going to push it that hard but perhaps I should consider an amplifier for it?  My receiver can only pump 105W to that channel?

 

 

[pio]

7 hours ago, Storm-Chaser said:

I would have been wandering in the dark like a blind man without your expert help and patience. You can indeed consider yourself the "high level architect" of this project, so in a sense you do in fact have stake in this system. The subwoofer choice was key. If that's any consolation. lol. 

 

I will get pictures up later today or tomorrow and you can see how I have it set up. Needless to say, its a very powerful center speaker that I've heard can handle 4X the RMS rating with ease. Not that I am going to push it that hard but perhaps I should consider an amplifier for it?  My receiver can only pump 105W to that channel?

 

 

You'd be surprised how loud even 50w RMS can be when setup correctly.  I wouldn't worry about an amplifier for it.  

 

EDIT:
Also, just so you know I'm not a TOTAL speaker "snob", I bought a set of Klipsh ProMedia 2.1's today myself.   They're "junk" compared to real speakers, sure.  But hey, at lower volumes they sound decent enough for the price paid.  I love thrift shopping lol.  I ALMOST bought a set of Yamaha surround sound speakers, but meh.....too small for me for surround sound.

Edited July 8, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

For the record it's sounding better and better as I learn how to tweak all the settings. 

The subwoofer will rattle windows two floors above it. lol

 

 

Interesting little problem has cropped up. This AV receiver works just fine. But occasionally, the display OCD will just go off. The music still plays in the background, the unit is still fully functional, I just can't figure out how to turn the screen back on short of power cycling the unit. Seems there are no settings for this either in the basic mode or advanced settings mode. 

[pio]

5 hours ago, Storm-Chaser said:

For the record it's sounding better and better as I learn how to tweak all the settings. 

The subwoofer will rattle windows two floors above it. lol

 

 

Interesting little problem has cropped up. This AV receiver works just fine. But occasionally, the display OCD will just go off. The music still plays in the background, the unit is still fully functional, I just can't figure out how to turn the screen back on short of power cycling the unit. Seems there are no settings for this either in the basic mode or advanced settings mode. 

I wonder if its a similar issue that I had.  Check your dimmer settings if it has any.  Also, check to see if you're in a "pure / direct" sound mode.  Both of those can cause the display to shut off.

[Storm-Chaser]

On 16/07/2022 at 18:50, pioneerisloud said:

I wonder if its a similar issue that I had.  Check your dimmer settings if it has any.  Also, check to see if you're in a "pure / direct" sound mode.  Both of those can cause the display to shut off.

Check out the progress

 

It's been really fun learning the ropes of designing an audio system and sort of customizing everything.

Specs:
7 x 100w Yamaha A/V receiver RX-V863
4 x 63w Logitech THX satellite speakers (from z5500 kit) 250w RMS
1 x 150w RMS Klipsch RM-62II center speaker (600w max power handling)
2 x 400w Klipsch R12-SW 12" front firing subwoofers

Only thing left to add is two additional RM-62s and call it a day. Enjoy!

New 12" subwoofer (2nd one)



Logitech THX satellite speakers really punch above their weight class





You can just make out the other subwoofer on the other side of the desk.



Neighbors are going to hate me.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[Storm-Chaser]

2nd subwoofer is hooked up and dialed in. All i can say is WOW! 

The "thud" can only be matched up to something like firing a 16" gun from a battle ship. It is absolutely INSANE how much power there is on tap with these subwoofers. The second subwoofer was the final step needed to fully resonate in the space I'm in.

 

 

[Avacado]

42 minutes ago, Storm-Chaser said:

2nd subwoofer is hooked up and dialed in. All i can say is WOW! 

The "thud" can only be matched up to something like firing a 16" gun from a battle ship. It is absolutely INSANE how much power there is on tap with these subwoofers. The second subwoofer was the final step needed to fully resonate in the space I'm in.

 

 

Man, I'm jealous. Reminds me of my first car and the dual 12"s I had. 

[pio]

8 hours ago, Storm-Chaser said:

2nd subwoofer is hooked up and dialed in. All i can say is WOW! 

The "thud" can only be matched up to something like firing a 16" gun from a battle ship. It is absolutely INSANE how much power there is on tap with these subwoofers. The second subwoofer was the final step needed to fully resonate in the space I'm in.

 

 

Just be careful with them, as I said before.....and they should last you a lifetime.   

 

I still say play with their positioning around the room too if you can.  The second one definitely helps to fill in dead zones, but you might find the frequency changes as you move them around the room too due to the voids in the room.

Now we just need to get you to step into some real speakers to match them, like your center, and you'll be all set!

[Storm-Chaser]

7 hours ago, pioneerisloud said:

Just be careful with them, as I said before.....and they should last you a lifetime.   

 

I still say play with their positioning around the room too if you can.  The second one definitely helps to fill in dead zones, but you might find the frequency changes as you move them around the room too due to the voids in the room.

Now we just need to get you to step into some real speakers to match them, like your center, and you'll be all set!

I will try changing speaker locations and testing again. I'm kind of glad there was no optimizer mic included with the Yamaha receiver, because it allowed me to learn the skills to tune on my own by sound. The problem I am facing is that the system is too powerful to be put directly in front of me, that's why it's off to the side. I like to listen pretty loud, so I can't have the speakers pointing directly at me. Which means normal speaker placement is kind of out of the picture. I can turn the speakers around, and that helps a little bit but I will experiment more in the next few days.

 

As for the speaker upgrades, yes, I will be following your advice and adding two more RM 62 IIs. I got a really good deal for the first one at $200 and now they are going for $250 and up, but it's a really high quality mid range speaker, so it's worth the investment. Not to mention the fact that the real RMS is probably double what they advertise. Or at least that's what people are saying about them. 

 

Also pondering the idea of getting a dedicated amp for my center speaker just to put a little more thumpity thump into the sound stream, and take a load off the A/V receiver.

 

For the record I have *already* partially destroyed (lol) two of the logitech speakers. I had to turn the levels on those two down (just a little bit, they still work fine), so I am using them as rear surround and the two good ones for the front. For the moment.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[Storm-Chaser]

14 hours ago, Avacado said:

Man, I'm jealous. Reminds me of my first car and the dual 12"s I had. 

I did the same thing with my first car, except only one sub:

 

 

[pio]

18 minutes ago, Storm-Chaser said:

I did the same thing with my first car, except only one sub:

 

 

 

I had that very SAME exact Pioneer 760w amplifier in my last big car build!  You can almost see it there behind the giant "2200w" monoblock, on the left hand side.  I was using that Pioneer 2ch 760w to power my front door woofers.  The tweeters and rear speakers were powered off my Soundqubed Q90 4ch on the right, also behind the monoblock.

 

[Storm-Chaser]

39 minutes ago, pioneerisloud said:

I was using that Pioneer 2ch 760w to power my front door woofers.

no way

small world after all! 

I used it to power the fronts as well....

 

 

 

[pio]

Dayton Reference 7" woofers, crossed over at about 5kHz was what mine ran.  My tweeters were 8ohm old Sony 1990 tower tweeters that I robbed because the woofers were busted.  I was doing about 200w RMS or so to the 7" woofers, and about 60w RMS to the tweeters (also crossed over around 5kHz).  My rears were just midrange and fill, Alpine Type S 6.5's with blown tweeters, and they were getting probably around 75w RMS or so each.  The subs were getting almost 2800w RMS clamped out of that monoblock, running it at 0.5ohm.   

[Storm-Chaser]

10 minutes ago, pioneerisloud said:

The subs were getting almost 2800w RMS clamped out of that monoblock, running it at 0.5ohm.   

That's hella dope. Must be a pretty good high from that much wattage thumping away.

 

Looks like I have some catching up to do 

 

The monoblock powers a single channel? And that's going to the sub I'm guessing? 

2200w is insane.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[pio]

4 hours ago, Storm-Chaser said:

That's hella dope. Must be a pretty good high from that much wattage thumping away.

 

Looks like I have some catching up to do 

 

The monoblock powers a single channel? And that's going to the sub I'm guessing? 

2200w is insane.

 

Subwoofer channel, yes.  Subs are never left and right, as any frequencies (typically) under 80Hz are "non directional", meaning you cannot tell a difference between left and right, front and back.  It just fills the room.  That's why with YOUR 12" subs I keep telling you to play around with room position.  It doesn't matter WHERE a sub is at, so long as you're getting the most out of it.  I mean, you "can" use left and right if you want to, but it really doesn't matter as much as your mid-bass 80Hz ish and up.  This is also why in car setups you'll find subwoofers typically in the trunk.  Not ONLY because of space concerns, but also because it just doesn't matter where they are in the car so long as you're getting the sound waves hitting your ears right.  I've heard an MR2 with a sub in the "trunk" up front, and you can't tell a bit of difference where the sub is actually at.

In the picture I shared, I was using two Dayton Ultimax 10" subs, in a tuned box at 2.45 cubic feet tuned to around 30Hz if I remember right.  They dug down as deep as 25Hz with authority, and up to about 50Hz.  Which meant my doors had to pick up from there.  I had a little bit of a frequency gap, but man did it thump and hit low.  My next build, I'm shooting for even lower tuning if I ever get to it.  

 

The 2200w was RATED power at 12.8v at 1.0ohm.  I was running 14.6v ish (car running / 3 batteries / upgraded wiring), and 0.5ohm load on it.  So yeah, was getting around 2800w RMS out of it (I think it clamped somewhere around 2775w or so).  Going below rated resistance is NOT recommended unless you absolutely know the amp can handle it, as I've mentioned to you before.  Those Soundqubed Q series car amps that I had were Korean based amplifiers capable of 0.5ohm loads, so it wasn't an issue.  I actually ran that same amp just fine at 0.25ohm with 4 10's in my Acura too for a while, and dailied it at 0.33ohm with 3 10's.  The Acura was where I started the build, the Honda was where I finished it and then it got stolen lol.

 

Car setups are entirely different from house setups though, as the room / "cab" is bigger so you have more space for the sound wave to mature properly before it hits your ear.  That's why those Klipsh subs at their what 250w RMS or so, impact you so incredibly well.  The bigger the area you're filling (to an extent), and the larger the subwoofer box itself can be, generally the better its going to behave.  It all depends on the tuning of everything though, including your room (or car cab).  It also has to do with how much you can pressurize the room or cab as well, in a car that's harder to do with the windows, doors, and trunk lid flexing and letting air leak out.  In a house, that issue doesn't happen as easily.  This is why it takes several hundred watts or even thousands of watts in a car, whereas a good 250w sub is good in a home, or part of it.

Edited August 10, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

On 10/08/2022 at 07:11, pioneerisloud said:

That's why with YOUR 12" subs I keep telling you to play around with room position.  It doesn't matter WHERE a sub is at, so long as you're getting the most out of it.

And getting the most out of it is what I indeed want to do. 

 

The first sub (to the right of my desk) is actually placed under a table (that boxes it in further) and has a "wall" on three sides (except for the front, obviously). This close proximity to three walls and a table above, greatly improves the resonation in the room, so that one I am comfortable with leaving. 

 

The second sub needs improvement (on the LH side of the desk). I have compensated for the fact that it is not in a corner by turning up the volume slightly. The problem is I have limited wire for the second sub, so I cant place it in any other corner of the room. 

 

That being said, if you look at the table above the left hand sub, I think I'm going to box it in using the legs as framing. So plywood on the top, and both sides, leaving the front open of course. To "mimic" the right hand sub as close as possible...

Edited August 11, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[pio]

20 minutes ago, Storm-Chaser said:

And getting the most out of it is what I indeed want to do. 

 

The first sub (to the right of my desk) is actually placed under a table (that boxes it in further) and has a "wall" on three sides (except for the front, obviously). This close proximity to three walls and a table above, greatly improves the resonation in the room, so that one I am comfortable with leaving. 

 

The second sub needs improvement (on the LH side of the desk). I have compensated for the fact that it is not in a corner by turning up the volume slightly. The problem is I have limited wire for the second sub, so I cant place it in any other corner of the room. 

 

That being said, if you look at the table above the left hand sub, I think I'm going to box it in using the legs as framing. So plywood on the top, and both sides, leaving the front open of course. To "mimic" the right hand sub as close as possible...

You might find that the plywood might end up causing more vibrations than anything and it being an annoyance.  The one in the corner works so well because its a corner, and probably well insulated walls.  You shouldn't need to turn the gain up louder, the point of the second sub is to fill in the room better where the dead zones were at, and to change the "boosted" frequency some so you have a better overall sound out of them.

 

Example, you might be getting say 45Hz peaks at your listening position out of the main sub, due to the room and where the sub is at.  Adding the second one in, might not make it very much louder (a second sub adds about +3dB in a perfect scenario).  BUT, it'll change that 45Hz peak frequency and fill it in so you have say 35-45Hz peak frequency, so it'll sound better.  It definitely does add more pressure to the room, but again, you should in theory expect in a BEST case scenario a +3dB increase in output, which is about "double" to the human ear.

Edited August 11, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

On 11/08/2022 at 18:28, pioneerisloud said:

You might find that the plywood might end up causing more vibrations than anything and it being an annoyance.  The one in the corner works so well because its a corner, and probably well insulated walls.  You shouldn't need to turn the gain up louder, the point of the second sub is to fill in the room better where the dead zones were at, and to change the "boosted" frequency some so you have a better overall sound out of them.

 

Example, you might be getting say 45Hz peaks at your listening position out of the main sub, due to the room and where the sub is at.  Adding the second one in, might not make it very much louder (a second sub adds about +3dB in a perfect scenario).  BUT, it'll change that 45Hz peak frequency and fill it in so you have say 35-45Hz peak frequency, so it'll sound better.  It definitely does add more pressure to the room, but again, you should in theory expect in a BEST case scenario a +3dB increase in output, which is about "double" to the human ear.

So instead of plywood I found my old ping pong fiber board, I cut out four pieces and boxed in an old table and used the legs for framing. It sounds about 20% better and more or less on par with the right hand subwoofer. So far it's not rattling anything other than the windows and floors above 

 

I just finished building the secondary resonator for the 2nd sub. I tried to mimic what I did with the first subwoofer. I used 5/8" ping pong fiber board material over a table, and it's doing an excellent job of matching the boom I get from the right hand side subwoofer. MUCH more balanced now, and diesel levels of boom.

Please forgive my potato phone

Edited August 14, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[Storm-Chaser]

@pioneerisloud

Can you talk to me about transducers and how they work? 

My subs have feet but its a cement floor, so I'm thinking of adding a transducer.

[pio]

1 hour ago, Storm-Chaser said:

@pioneerisloud

Can you talk to me about transducers and how they work? 

My subs have feet but its a cement floor, so I'm thinking of adding a transducer.

They're good for under 30hz,  "subsonic" frequencies. So let me give a general idea of frequencies here so it makes more sense. These are general, and can be different depending on the setup. Terminology, one "octave" is a doubling of frequency. So 20-40hz is one octave. 60-120 is one octave. Etc. 

 

01-20/30hz = subsonic. You can feel these but not hear them. Most people can hear down to AROUND 20hz. Bass shakers or transducers are a wonderful addition for these frequencies. 

 

20-60/80hz -  subwoofer bass. Non directional, so you can't tell where it's coming from in the room (or car). Subwoofers CAN get down into subsonic, and a good home theater sub will. In general, a subwoofer works BEST if kept within about 1/2 octave below tuning and about 1 octave above tuning. But this rule can be bent, but it's a general rule because of enclosure tuning. It all depends on the enclosure type though. 

 

60/80-250hz - mid bass. Your front speakers woofers should be capable of this full range. This is why I recommend bigger than logitechs. This keeps the directional bass from going to the sub (bass where you can hear WHERE in the room it's coming from). 

 

250-2.5/5khz - midrange. This can come from a dedicated midrange driver in your speakers in a 3 way set, or from the woofer in a 2 way set. If there's a dedicated midrange driver it'll typically go up to 5khz ish. If it's a 2 way set, it'll be down lower around 2.5. This is mostly your vocals, and well MOST of your frequency you hear. It's a huge range. 

 

2.5/5khz - 20khz+ - treble. This is your hissing sounds, high hats, and other extremely high frequency driven by your tweeter. Having a GOOD tweeter will save your ears. These are the most dangerous frequencies. You'll find different tweeters absolutely sound different. Air drivers and soft domes are generally the easiest on your ears, horns and metal domes (super tweeters) can get EXTREMELY loud and are quite harsh. You find these types at concerts or dB drag cars. Kind of a preference thing there. 

 

So transducers are effective, assuming you need or want the extreme subsonic frequencies and your subwoofer isn't capable. You won't HEAR any difference. But you'll feel it. You will need an amplifier for them, and you'll want to tune them to where your sub drops off at. 

 

[Storm-Chaser]

Some interesting observations. Will i need two transducers or will one just cut it? 
 

I have been tweaking / tuning the sound system for optimal results since I set it up a month ago, as you are aware. And next month the logitechs will be retired for high performance bookshelf speakers.

 

I have been experimenting with the "large" speaker option on the receiver. This is the best setup for my room. So I set all my speakers to large, including the little satellites (I turn the volume down a bit on these). I changed bass output from sub to both sub and front/center speakers. This adds a major element to the listing quality. Setting everything on small resulting in more of a treble situation than I wanted. 

 

Everyone keeps telling me the speakers should be set to small, to avoid reproducing sounds better made by the subwoofer. 

 

My scenario did not benefit from this. The sound is much richer in large mode and even when cranked up, nothing is being distorted.

[pio]

Small is the correct setting. The crossover only works when set to small (usually). And you do want the crossover as it blocks frequencies from your main speakers that they cannot reproduce anyway. It's possible you just need to mess with the crossover frequency settings. 

Edited August 24, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

Okay crossovers are fixed. Here is a bass test with my cheap tablet so it's not picking up the noise very accurately, but you should still get the point. I go to the third floor of this house and it's still shaking the windows. Between 40s and 44s mark there is a really loud email alert that comes through, so be aware of that. But definitely turn the bass up so you can get an idea of what it sounds like. That's the reason I started at the top of the stairs, because the entire staircase acts like a giant subwoofer. Both subs have secondary enclosures / resonators for maximum performance.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[Diffident]

1 hour ago, Storm-Chaser said:

Okay crossovers are fixed. Here is a bass test with my cheap tablet so it's not picking up the noise very accurately, but you should still get the point. I go to the third floor of this house and it's still shaking the windows. Between 40s and 44s mark there is a really loud email alert that comes through, so be aware of that. But definitely turn the bass up so you can get an idea of what it sounds like. That's the reason I started at the top of the stairs, because the entire staircase acts like a giant subwoofer. Both subs have secondary enclosures / resonators for maximum performance.

 

 

 

If you're going to play Black Label Society, you gotta play Funeral Bell.