Open Planning Discussion for 2024 EXTREMEHW Annual 2024 Folding Event

[damric]

I think everyone agrees that the inaugural 2023 event we had back in March was a success. We had a few hiccups along the way, and we want the community's feedback on how we can manage the next event to make it even better. Post your ideas in this thread, and the planning committee will seriously consider all input for the 2024 event.

 

Some concerns of my own:

 

1) We ran into trouble with import duties/tariffs on the prizes for Canada, which caused some of us some significant personal expense to get those ransoms paid and get the prizes delivered. We also had some shipping expenses for one vendor that sent one of us a big prize box and had us distribute it ourselves. We can't really control how our prize vendors operate. We were actually quite blessed with the sheer amount of merchandise they donated. I have my own idea to help alleviate the burden of incidental costs associated with running the contest, and I'll post that below.

 

2) Was 96 hours the right amount of time for the challenge? 96 hours is pretty brutal when you are folding on every machine in the house, but some people said they are open to a longer challenge, possibly a week or 10 days. Personally I have mixed feelings towards that, but I am curious to see what the community thinks.

 

3) I want the event to be about 3 weeks sooner than last year, which would put it towards the end of February. Would that be cool?

[damric]

Ok so here's the one hopefully not too controversial idea that I have that would spare one or two of us from getting stuck with the bill like last time.

 

Entry donation to be eligible for prizes, sort of like a raffle.

 

We had around 75 people come fold with us at the last event. Hypothetically if we get the same amount of people next year, and most of them donated $10 to the site as an entry fee, we could use that to cover our expenses and we should slightly more than break even.

 

Obviously we wouldn't require it just to participate, but just to be part of the random prize draw. If you remember, we had something like 50 very good random prizes we gave away last time.

 

If we get even more interest for the next event, this could also end up being a bit of a small fundraiser for the site, so please consider.

 

 

[Monsterkater]

To circumvent issues like 1) I had a similar idea of somehow crowdfunding distribution expenses. I also think around ten bucks for shipping is fair; our biggest (though not necessarily the best) parcel service charges 6.99 nationally for basic shipping including tracking. Add to that the cost of getting a fitting box and transporting all those prizes to a shipping outlet. So yeah, 10 bucks is reasonable. Very.

 

2) Yeah, folding 96h on end was quite taxing, on the hardware (I had drivers crash a few times over the course of the first day) as well as on the inside temperature side of things. Still, it was very fun and I even pushed on to get three figures, crushing the 100h mark. That little dopamine kick when seeing that leftmost numeral flip from naught to 1 just feels too great. Therefore, I'd say let's make that a full work-week, ie five days or 120 hours.

 

3) That would not only be cool, it'd be a very welcome modification. For us, March was already quite warm this year so having the big competition a little earlier would be greatly appreciated on my part.

 

 

As an addition to 1) I was thinking about maybe getting one volunteer per participant's nation, as kind of a one-person distribution center. Seeing that domestic shipping usually is a lot less hassle than sending stuff internationally, I just thought it might be easier to pack one big box per nation and have the prizes be then distributed to the winners via national shipping. Depending on how shipping rates compare nationally vs internationally this might even be cheaper, but I didn't do the maths on that.

[Avacado]

42 minutes ago, Monsterkater said:

As an addition to 1) I was thinking about maybe getting one volunteer per participant's nation, as kind of a one-person distribution center. Seeing that domestic shipping usually is a lot less hassle than sending stuff internationally, I just thought it might be easier to pack one big box per nation and have the prizes be then distributed to the winners via national shipping. Depending on how shipping rates compare nationally vs internationally this might even be cheaper, but I didn't do the maths on that.

Love most of your ideas, the one above is difficult for three reasons. 

 

1. We almost always have the vendor's directly ship the prizes to the winners (If an option), which should eliminate the need for middle men.

2. If we keep it a "random draw", there is no way to know which prizes will go where. This makes it hard if not all winners of a certain vendor are in the same country.  

3. That would be many points of coordination and EHW does not want to make non-staff members liable for gifts if anything should happen to them.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Avacado

[Avacado]

I like the February idea, should help with temps. I think I like @Monsterkater's idea of 5 days. I think that a $10 entry free to be eligible for prizes is also more than fair. 

[Fluxmaven]

I'm cool with the preposed changes. 

 

I wouldn't want to go longer than 5 days though. Not many people have dedicated folding farms. I definitely couldn't tie up all my hardware for something like 10 days. 

 

Obviously nobody is forcing anyone to run all their hardware the whole event, but it's fun to be able to throw it all on the line. I just think it would be a bigger ask to extend that too much further. 5 days seems like a good middle ground of tolerable abuse 

[neurotix]

I'd be willing to pay $10 to participate, and since I fold 24/7 anyway, I don't care how long it is. 96 Hours seems pretty good though. I don't have issues with heat (rig is in a 1100~ ft finished basement) but I can see how others might. I am also fine with late February.

 

I know I am no longer graphics designer, and part of it was 1) my negative attitude at the time, 2) complaining too much about making changes to images, and 3) my art being seasonal banners when everyone wanted simple protein strands for a background (essentially my art not being good enough or what was wanted), however people really loved all the advertising images I made for the foldathon. To the extent that some people were even using them on other forums.

 

That said, I would humbly offer to make social media and forum advertising images such as the image I made with all the prizes, vendor logos, site logo and date. I could also do the smaller, signature banner type images as well. See below.

 

[damric]

Yeah I know a lot of people are like "pay to play, what?"

 

If this was suggested last year I probably would have been in the HELL NO camp, myself.

 

I knew there could be incidental expenses but they were much more than what I estimated. If you are curious you can pm me but I won't discuss the exact details here.

 

So $10 entry ticket seems like the most reasonable way to do this, least amount of headache for everyone involved. I would envision that it is in the form of a donation to the site that @ENTERPRISE would keep safe. Myself and the other staff would get reimbursed after completion, and any remaining leftover funds would be donated to running this site.

 

But out of curiosity, in the interest of really fundraising for the site, what if we set the entry fee to $20? That would actually be a very effective annual fundraiser. Just a thought, and I wouldn't even think of raising it higher than that.

[Fluxmaven]

1 hour ago, damric said:

But out of curiosity, in the interest of really fundraising for the site, what if we set the entry fee to $20? That would actually be a very effective annual fundraiser. Just a thought, and I wouldn't even think of raising it higher than that.

 

I personally don't have a problem with that although I think $20 might be discouraging to a lot of people. We had a fair amount of participation from members outside the site that in turn stuck around. Asking too much might turn away people that might otherwise be interested.

 

I have no idea what it cost to distribute and pay import duties on last years haul but for the sake of easy math let's say we need $500 to cover it.

 

At $20 you would need 25 people to pay to play

At $10 it's 50 people

At $5 it jumps up to 100. 

 

So saying we had around 75 people last year, that makes me think $10 is the sweet spot. Not everyone that participates is interested in prizes. And of those interested, many would be on the fence about an entry fee at all. $10 or less is pocket change. Above that I think you'll start scaring people off.

 

I wasn't aware that we incurred so much expense getting the prizes out last time. Regardless of what we end up setting it to, I'm willing to chip in a little extra if we come up short so it's not all falling on your shoulders. 

[Avacado]

4 hours ago, damric said:

Yeah I know a lot of people are like "pay to play, what?"

 

If this was suggested last year I probably would have been in the HELL NO camp, myself.

 

I knew there could be incidental expenses but they were much more than what I estimated. If you are curious you can pm me but I won't discuss the exact details here.

 

So $10 entry ticket seems like the most reasonable way to do this, least amount of headache for everyone involved. I would envision that it is in the form of a donation to the site that @ENTERPRISE would keep safe. Myself and the other staff would get reimbursed after completion, and any remaining leftover funds would be donated to running this site.

 

But out of curiosity, in the interest of really fundraising for the site, what if we set the entry fee to $20? That would actually be a very effective annual fundraiser. Just a thought, and I wouldn't even think of raising it higher than that.

I agree with Flux on this one, I think $10 is the right amount. $20 is a stretch

[ENTERPRISE]

10 hours ago, damric said:

Yeah I know a lot of people are like "pay to play, what?"

 

If this was suggested last year I probably would have been in the HELL NO camp, myself.

 

I knew there could be incidental expenses but they were much more than what I estimated. If you are curious you can pm me but I won't discuss the exact details here.

 

So $10 entry ticket seems like the most reasonable way to do this, least amount of headache for everyone involved. I would envision that it is in the form of a donation to the site that @ENTERPRISE would keep safe. Myself and the other staff would get reimbursed after completion, and any remaining leftover funds would be donated to running this site.

 

But out of curiosity, in the interest of really fundraising for the site, what if we set the entry fee to $20? That would actually be a very effective annual fundraiser. Just a thought, and I wouldn't even think of raising it higher than that.

 

Doing it as a donation through the sites sale system is a good idea so long as we collect a list of users details who said they made a donation to be in for the prize pool. This means I can correlate that list against payments received and I can then greenlight everyone before prizes are raffled. Username and email address used to make the payment ought to do it

 

Lastly I believe $10 is a sweet spot. I still want to make the competition as accessible as possible for those who are competing in the name of getting a prize. 

 

We must also make it SUPER clear in the competition thread that the $10 payment is only for prizes and NOT for general entry into the competition.

[bonami2]

I don't think people would pays. And that open a can of worm in many province / state country because asking money even if it not directly related is considered gambling in many place. Quebec as one of the worst law about gambling in the world. Lot of time price draw are Canada wide except Quebec.

[Monsterkater]

11 hours ago, Fluxmaven said:

I personally don't have a problem with that although I think $20 might be discouraging to a lot of people. We had a fair amount of participation from members outside the site that in turn stuck around. Asking too much might turn away people that might otherwise be interested.

 

So saying we had around 75 people last year, that makes me think $10 is the sweet spot. Not everyone that participates is interested in prizes. And of those interested, many would be on the fence about an entry fee at all. $10 or less is pocket change. Above that I think you'll start scaring people off.

 

I wasn't aware that we incurred so much expense getting the prizes out last time. Regardless of what we end up setting it to, I'm willing to chip in a little extra if we come up short so it's not all falling on your shoulders. 

 

I 100% agree. While I myself wouldn't take issue with paying more - I'd draw the line somewhere around 25 bucks personally - I assume most people won't be willing to pay more than $10, if that.

That being said, this might be off-topic but I do see a niche for a gala-like fundraising event, separate from the foldathon: 

Spoiler

13 hours ago, damric said:

But out of curiosity, in the interest of really fundraising for the site, what if we set the entry fee to $20? That would actually be a very effective annual fundraiser.

Idk, just spitballing here: Make that $25*, have an (open, ie take donations from non-participants as well) account for donations (PayPal comes to mind) and a live counter for funds raised, pledge to donate x% + some amount of money per WU / 100K points folded to EFF (or whatever charity you'd like). Something along those lines. Like, don't just fundraise for the forum - F@H arguably is a charity project, so be charitable and donate some of the proceeds, on top of the compute alone. This way I think the fundraising event would gain more traction than just "fold for prizes" alone.

* Come to think of it, I could also see an argument to be made for having tiered entries like $25 for external ppl, $20 for free tier forum members, $15 for paid forum members. Numbers just exemplary, of course.

 

 

1 hour ago, bonami2 said:

I don't think people would pays. And that open a can of worm in many province / state country because asking money even if it not directly related is considered gambling in many place. Quebec as one of the worst law about gambling in the world. Lot of time price draw are Canada wide except Quebec.

 

Good point. Most prize draws I came across were free (well, monetarily at least, you do pay in personal data), however I'm not sure what the terms where regarding Quebec in those cases.

I don't get what the issue hinges on really, is it the upfront cost or is it the prizes themselves because in winning those, there is a game of chance involved? If it's the latter, 2023's foldathon was already problematic; otherwise could we maybe circumvent this by making the payments voluntary, that way Quebec residents could just not pay for it and it should be fine, hopefully?

[damric]

Loving this feedback. Keep it coming.

[bonami2]

2 hours ago, Monsterkater said:

 

I 100% agree. While I myself wouldn't take issue with paying more - I'd draw the line somewhere around 25 bucks personally - I assume most people won't be willing to pay more than $10, if that.

That being said, this might be off-topic but I do see a niche for a gala-like fundraising event, separate from the foldathon: 

  Reveal hidden contents

Idk, just spitballing here: Make that $25*, have an (open, ie take donations from non-participants as well) account for donations (PayPal comes to mind) and a live counter for funds raised, pledge to donate x% + some amount of money per WU / 100K points folded to EFF (or whatever charity you'd like). Something along those lines. Like, don't just fundraise for the forum - F@H arguably is a charity project, so be charitable and donate some of the proceeds, on top of the compute alone. This way I think the fundraising event would gain more traction than just "fold for prizes" alone.

* Come to think of it, I could also see an argument to be made for having tiered entries like $25 for external ppl, $20 for free tier forum members, $15 for paid forum members. Numbers just exemplary, of course.

 

 

 

Good point. Most prize draws I came across were free (well, monetarily at least, you do pay in personal data), however I'm not sure what the terms where regarding Quebec in those cases.

I don't get what the issue hinges on really, is it the upfront cost or is it the prizes themselves because in winning those, there is a game of chance involved? If it's the latter, 2023's foldathon was already problematic; otherwise could we maybe circumvent this by making the payments voluntary, that way Quebec residents could just not pay for it and it should be fine, hopefully?

I don't really know the exact law but i can try to take a look. All i know is often FB price draw are Canada wide except quebec i think it may just me a tax issue or really gambling issue idk.

[damric]

38 minutes ago, bonami2 said:

I don't really know the exact law but i can try to take a look. All i know is often FB price draw are Canada wide except quebec i think it may just me a tax issue or really gambling issue idk.

Someone else could enter you on your behalf?

[bonami2]

57 minutes ago, damric said:

Someone else could enter you on your behalf?

Oh yea anyways most of the time these i don't join. Am just saying this in case it could cause trouble in other country or something.

[neurotix]

I think $10 is the right amount. Unfortunately so. I don't think many people, especially if we advertise this and the prizes with SM images, would be willing to pay $20 to enter.

 

$20 would certainly ensure that there's enough money to get people their prizes without any problems. Unfortunately, I think it will really discourage people from participating because it's too much, especially for people not in the US or Europe.

Edited October 1, 2023 by neurotix

[ENTERPRISE]

Thanks for the feedback so far guys.

[CoolGTX]

Earlier is better in North America, when it is coldest.  However I am not sure how many participants are in other parts of the world, in their warm season.

 

It all depends of your target market & the goal(s) of running the contest, besides a boost to your team's overall Folding standing

 

Prizes, shipping expenses & "Government fees" for cross border shipments ......  would calling it a "Gift" & not a "Prize" make any difference?

 

Shipping in general has gotten way more expensive over the last few years

 

A couple of other ideas, besides what has already been suggested "group funding"

 

 

1) you could limit the award of (some/most) prizes, to avoid cross border shipments & those additional fees ?

 

2) Gift cards instead of items? Though I have no idea if gift cards incur, cross border fees

 

3) Winner is responsible for shipping & government fees ?

 

Last years contest was full of great prizes, however maybe more "ExtremeHW swag" & less new products could still be a great way to motivate participation? 

 

[Avacado]

42 minutes ago, CoolGTX said:

Earlier is better in North America, when it is coldest.  However I am not sure how many participants are in other parts of the world, in their warm season.

 

It all depends of your target market & the goal(s) of running the contest, besides a boost to your team's overall Folding standing

 

Prizes, shipping expenses & "Government fees" for cross border shipments ......  would calling it a "Gift" & not a "Prize" make any difference?

 

Shipping in general has gotten way more expensive over the last few years

 

A couple of other ideas, besides what has already been suggested "group funding"

 

 

1) you could limit the award of (some/most) prizes, to avoid cross border shipments & those additional fees ?

 

2) Gift cards instead of items? Though I have no idea if gift cards incur, cross border fees

 

3) Winner is responsible for shipping & government fees ?

 

Last years contest was full of great prizes, however maybe more "ExtremeHW swag" & less new products could still be a great way to motivate participation? 

 

So we learned quite a few things after this years tournament. Luckily most of the participants live in pretty similar lines of latitude and fall under similar seasons (fall/winter). How a vendor labels the item is a HUGE part of how fee's are assessed before delivery and we can only "suggest" they be labeled as a gift. If the shipping agent for whatever vendor fails to do so, we end up liable for those fee's. The second part of that is "Declared Value", a few places have dollar amounts that must be kept below or fee's/taxes are assessed.

 

1- We tried doing that in small part last year, limiting Cooler Master prizes to USA only because they bulk shipped the items to me, which I then had to distribute out of pocket to all the winners. I dislike holding an event where prizes have to be limited to region based on cost, this is why we are asking how people feel with a $10 entry fee.

 

2- Tech manufacturers do not issue gift cards that I am aware of. They would also need a proprietary online store to accomplish this. I can reach out to some vendors over the next month and inquire about this as it's actually a good idea. 

 

3- If we do this, it is no longer a "Gift/prize". They should not have to be paid for by the winner. Last year we had Canadian customs asking for higher duty fee's than most of the items were actually worth.

 

4- Extreme swag is not manufactured by us and still has an associated cost. We wanted a way to give our members gifts for participating in activities that did not incur a cost to members or EHW in any way. That was at least the plan.....

Edited October 4, 2023 by Avacado

[neurotix]

13 minutes ago, Avacado said:

 

4- Extreme swag is not manufactured by us and still has an associated cost. We wanted a way to give our members gifts for participating in activities that did not incur a cost to members or EHW in any way. That was at least the plan.....

 

Here's an idea. Why not do like, a year of Premium Gold on the forums and have it available for three people through random drawing? Maybe also do 1x Premium Platinum too? That should probably be free, right?

Edited October 4, 2023 by neurotix

[Avacado]

28 minutes ago, neurotix said:

 

Here's an idea. Why not do like, a year of Premium Gold on the forums and have it available for three people through random drawing? Maybe also do 1x Premium Platinum too? That should probably be free, right?

Bronze might not be a horrible idea, but Platinum is a lifetime upgraded membership. For every "free" membership that we distribute, we are taking away the potential revenue from the site. You would have to ask @ENTERPRISEif that kind of prize is something he would like to do. 

[damric]

1 hour ago, neurotix said:

 

Here's an idea. Why not do like, a year of Premium Gold on the forums and have it available for three people through random drawing? Maybe also do 1x Premium Platinum too? That should probably be free, right?

This was discussed last time (in the planning committee) and @ENTERPRISE explained the reasons we won't do that.

 

But...what if we only drew prizes for gold/silver/bronze membership? Even if they only did the membership for 1 month it would generate about the same revenue as charging $10 per ticket and people might like that better since it has added perks. Plus obviously some people would keep paying the subscription if they liked it.

 

What you think @Avacado

 

[neurotix]

Oh okay. Good to know it was already discussed and is not an option, but I still think it should be longer than just a month. Maybe 3 or 6 months. If Enterprise wouldn't agree to it I understand, but I'll reiterate that there's no cost to the site, shipping of a physical item, tariffs or import duties, money spent out of staff's pockets on merch from our store and so on. So it really should be considered more closely.