pio

o.0 Yeah a Brissy 5600+! Yeah you need to overclock that thing now.

Hey, look at it this way. You were able to get the GPU you wanted in 2022. +1 for that! It's still a fast setup regardless of who makes it. You bought what your budget allowed for, there's absolutely no shame in that. Honestly, you got a pretty nice rig anyway. 12700k is right up there with the best CPU's for gaming, and even for multitasking. Really it wasn't a bad tradeoff at all.

Oh yeah, forgot to upload a picture earlier. Here's the latest addition to my ATI / AMD GPU collection! ATI Radeon 8500LE. From what I can find, the only difference between the LE and non LE variants was clock speed. The LE is clocked at 250 / 250, and the non LE is 275 / 275. So close enough to highest end DX8.1 card I could find anyway, I wasn't paying $300 for a 25 year old GPU.

It has more thump than my setup. I'm rocking a 6.5" Pioneer soundbar subwoofer that I scored at a thrift store for $7. Only reason I don't have a giant sub is because neighbors. If they keep pounding their little soundbar sub at 4am though.....I'll tell you what, they're going to wish they had a different neighbor after I bring in a real sub. As I said before though, if you're happy with it, that's what matters. If you're after advice? Get rid of the Logitech and step into some real speakers. These types of setups can be anywhere from thrift store finds and ebay amp kits all the way up into the thousands of dollars. Just like a PC. However this time its not framerates you're after, but ease of listening on your ears. You can start by using bits and pieces of the Logitech setup too. Think about your speaker setup more as a long term enjoyment kind of thing. You don't replace speakers every build if you have good ones. You keep them for years and years. The important thing to start off with is a good signal, whether its analogue or digital, doesn't matter. To figure out what type of signal you need, you need an amp. Choose one with however many channels you're wanting (good stereo will beat bad 5.1 anyday for sound quality). Feed it the appropriate signal. From there, its time to look at speakers and subs. Again, you can piece together bits from your z5500's to make that happen, so I'd start at sub first if you're looking for "thump". And again, a good base model home theater receiver would be an easy way to step into that area since even just adding a proper sub, its still going to need the right frequencies. As is, you're making middle school me jealous. Heck, even adult me kinda wants to take a critical listen again to the Logitech setups since its been 10 years since I've heard them lol.

Not to say you chaps haven't done your own gluing and screwing in the past (maybe one more than the other? ). But I feel accomplished this evening. Did a really sub par job, completely forgot to tin both ends that I was working on before trying to join them together. However.....they're stuck and not going anywhere, so mission accomplished! I finally remembered how to solder properly on the very last terminal, the + on the terminal cup. Next up will be testing the seal on this new back to the sub. I'll do that after the glue is fully dry. Might wait until my new desktop sub amp arrives too since that should be any day now. If I get antsy though, the car amp is still hooked up.

That's fine and I respect your opinion on the subject, whole heartedly. I too like to think about "why are they doing this". Which is kind of why we're debating in so many words. You say forcing updates is microsofts choice in the matter since so many people lack updates, businesses, botnets etc reasons. Okay. I can understand that. My point being that those reasons are not justified for the force they're displaying by these moves. It's a power move. "You can't use older versions because we say so" , in so many words. The same exact reason why many a piece of old software is disgaurded. It's not because of a lack of functionality, it's because the company deems it so. If a new update, new service pack, or new os is actually worthwhile to use, it should be upon its own merit, not by force. EDIT: It's like the arguments of software use and EULA's. It's a very similar argument. On one side of the argument, the EULA says so, the user is forced to agree with it, so it must be okay. You either agree with the EULA or you don't use the software. Doesn't matter what the point is in the EULA, that's why you have to agree with it. Doesn't matter if the EULA changes after you've purchased said software, because you already agreed that any changes to the EULA you agree with before the changes were even made. Basically, the software is the company's property so the company has every right to do whatever they want. On the other side of that same argument, you have people that believe that the customers or people should be right and to do as they please with software they've paid their hard earned money for. It's the same argument, we're just talking about Microsoft in this instance. So we get it, you support Microsoft knowing that its their software to do with as they please. I'm on the other side of that argument because I paid my hard earned money for a product, and I expect I should be able to do whatever I want with a product I paid for.

How does it not make sense? No, I'm pretty sure I'm having the same conversation since I'm responding DIRECTLY to your points. You probably will repeat the same thing over again for a third time. Another thing we've already pointed out. A minimum standard that everyone has to adhere to? Why do we HAVE TO? Why is it the almighty Microsoft that has the final say on what MY HARDWARE does? It's NEVER been a thing before Windows 10, and it SHOULD NOT be a thing now. It's my hardware, not Microsoft's. Why are you picking that ONE small word I said in all of those paragraphs and writing your response solely on that one word, "punish", and making it sound like that's solely what my concern was? You haven't been reading any of my comments, or at least not comprehending them very well. I mean I could take this very quoted response of yours and be like, "haha, gotcha, so you admit Microsoft wants to punish us??!!". Except I didn't, because I can understand that your comment there was sarcasm. You see, I am reading your points. You just haven't provided a valid reason to defend Microsoft in their pursuit of forcing things down people's throats. Botnets, security updates, virus', fringe users that just click next next next finish.....all things we've talked about already. None of which are an acceptable reason as to WHY Microsoft thinks this is okay behavior.

Okay, so we're going to punish the minority of power users and majority of general users because of a few bad eggs that don't understand the update process? Sounds familiar.......

My gosh dude. Do you REALLY believe that I'm arguing that viruses are harming the people themselves that use the computers? OF COURSE ITS THE COMPUTER THAT'S THE TARGET. -_- My point being, that botnets do not target regular everyday users. They never have. Why would they start now in 2022? One or two fringe examples may be able to be found, but in my 20+ years of computer repair I've never once seen a regular user effected by a botnet attack. Why is it out of touch to say that there's no logical reason to force updates? Why is that so fringe to say, when just 5 years ago this exact argument was being had, and the users complained about forced updates? Why is it changed now? My opinion has never waivered on this subject, I have NEVER been for forced updates. It was not fringe 5 years ago when Windows 10 came out and everybody else was worried about these exact problems. Why now, that those problems are showing their ugly faces and I'm pointing back and saying, "see told you so", why now is my opinion so cringe? 5 years ago, forced updates would have been laughed at in these types of communities that we have here at EHW. And no, its not in my mind that its all a game to get my to update to Windows 11. I said with my VERY FIRST RESPONSE in this very thread, that I have the features disabled in my BIOS so that Windows 11 will NOT be offered. I'm not worried about them forcing 11 on me. Why would I be when my system is "incompatible"? "The most logical reason is security updates, duh"? What is that supposed to mean? Did security updates never exist before Microsoft started forcing them?

Exactly what I said a while ago that we're beating a dead cow here. This is exactly why I used XP as an example earlier to prove that updates aren't necessarily needed for everyday browsing. You countered that by stating that of course XP wouldn't be a target for malicious means since its not used by the masses anymore. We agree. We also agree on botnets seeing as how it really wouldn't be a target by everyday users. Another point being here, that system admins for large businesses and web infrastructure is ALREADY on top of keeping things secure. Security updates absolutely are one tool they use. You have yet to prove a point defending Microsoft here though since your arguments CAN be countered with valid arguments. There is absolutely no logical reason to force updates beyond a power flexing purpose. Regular users aren't affected by them that much these days, and major sites that would be....already have security teams in place. And this isn't even about security patches since that's already been forced since Windows 10 released. Part of why large businesses don't use Windows 10, because they cannot afford the unplanned downtime.

Right, I understand your point there. And I agree with it to an extent. Yes, botnets are a PART of the security updates. Sure. The reasoning BEHIND it is where we differ on opinion. I'm stating that botnets are a non issue for the vast majority of Windows users as they would not be targeted by such an attack. Attacks and virus' are a result of people trying to get money or power from malicious means. Why do we need botnet security updates, when the average user is not attacked by botnets? Those are a concern moreso for web infrastructure and larger businesses, not your average home user. So it begs the same question I've had this entire time, why are we forcing these updates if they don't actually help anything? Of course system admins for larger businesses and web infrastructure would be on top of deploying security patches as quickly as they can, especially if they're targeted regularly by botnet type attacks. One COULD make the argument that if it weren't for the security updates, botnet attacks would be more frequent. Okay, let's go down that rabbit hole. Why would botnets target regular everyday people? It takes far too much effort to do a successful botnet attack, why would a scammer or malicious person use such a tactic on a regular everyday person when they can just phish their email or call them and claim to be from Microsoft, give them money or else? So it doesn't make sense for doing these updates "automatically" (or forced) for a large business or infrastructure as the system admins would already be on top of security patches as is. It doesn't make sense from a standard user point of view either since they typically wouldn't be attacked by a botnet type attack. Sooooo why are we forcing them then?

Well I'm glad that Microsoft is worried about these things, they should be. It's not like updates haven't broken systems in the past before or anything, so its not like I or others don't have valid concerns here. And that is a VERY good question, "Will Microsoft be able to deliver an extremely issue free update if its not optional?". Very VERY good question. Time will tell. I would like to make note though, that past experience with Microsoft says the answer is no. However, the correct answer is absolutely, "time will tell". We'll see. I don't have faith in them though based on their past and present. How am I arguing in bad faith regarding botnets? We discussed it already. I didn't avoid engaging in it, I directly responded previously. I don't see the point in beating a dead cow when we've already discussed it and together determined that botnets are not the sole cause for forcing updates.

Okay, I'll try to keep this organized with your points..... 1) You might think I'm being "paranoid" here with my thoughts that this is leading to more force. However, you also would have called me "paranoid" in 2015 when I was complaining about updates being forced to begin with when Windows 10 was released. It's not paranoia when Microsoft is doing exactly what I'm complaining about. Just because its not happening this year, doesn't mean its not coming. I never said it was going to happen tomorrow. I said, "that's where this road Microsoft is on is heading". 2) As mentioned by myself and other people already, botnets aren't necessarily the point of security updates. it's one of them, sure. You're the only one that keeps bringing up botnets. 3) Beyond the risk of a compatibility issue. Yes, drivers WOULD have something to do with compatibility, sure. Absolutely. That's not the point I made though is it? When the drivers are literally catching things on fire, or killing hardware in other ways, that's no longer a compatibility issue but a security issue since that "update" is now acting more like a "virus". It's counter productive. I'm not talking about killing functionality, I'm talking about updates to drivers that flat out KILL hardware. That's not a compatibility problem, its a security problem since a piece of software is physically harming my equipment that I've paid money for. It's a virus in that instance. This has been a problem a few different times over the years, and I for one do NOT want those kind of problems forced upon me. Interesting that you single out compatibility problems too though with updates though. If you're willing to admit that compatibility problems are a thing with updates, again....why is it okay to force them? As THAT is the whole point of the argument here, forcing updates vs not forcing them. I should have the ability to choose if I want updates installed or not, and which updates I apply. Same thing with service packs or feature updates. Same thing with OS upgrades. It's my hardware, not Microsoft's.

Very good points there. Doesn't need to be a 15" monster sub though, a good 8" can fill the room just as easily. But otherwise, absolutely spot on. I think by adding the z625 sub to the z5500 sub, what you're noticing is that you're hitting the tuning frequency a little harder since both subs are tuned around the same octave. Could also just be room placement causing that effect too. There's a LOT of things to consider with audio. By the way, consider me SUPER jealous of your 14Hz table. Apartment living keeps me above 40Hz most of the time.

I never said they were 100% going to force people on 11. The only post where I stated anything like that, I also stated, "I'm not sure as I have TPMS or whatever turned off, so I can't say for sure". What I AM saying though, is that this has been a slow move to that exact point. You start slow and work up to get mass adoption. You start by forcing small things like security patches. Next logical step in forcing updates would be service packs or "feature updates". This is where we are today. What's the next thing they can force update? Whole OS's. It's coming. That's the direction this road Microsoft is on is heading. Yes, I have a problem with totalitarian control over things that are supposed to be in my control. I should be in control of the security updates applied to MY computer. I should also be in control over what service packs I run, or what OS I run. Period. Do I have an issue with updates beyond a security risk? Yes absolutely since driver updates are now a part of Windows update whether you like it or not. Currently they're still "optional", but updates themselves used to be optional too. Driver updates have flat out killed hardware of mine in the past. Absolutely lit on fire kind of killed. Yes, I have a problem with Microsoft thinking they have control over MY hardware.

Video is private, will not allow us to watch it. Change the privacy settings maybe to "unlisted" and share the link? That way it still shouldn't show up publicly, but the link should still get to it. I think.....I'm not a "youtuber", so I could be wrong. I'd love to take a look and listen.

I can agree with most of that sure. There are benefits to staying up to date, yes. As far as Windows 10 Home vs Pro, the "updates" have always been forced. The "new versions", what used to be called "service packs" were not forced. Now they are. You say it yourself, you can see they've made changes to their update policy, this is why. You can install Windows 10 version 1607 right now and STAY on 1607, as it will not FORCE you to update to 21H2 or whatever the newest SP is. That's what they're changing. Again, they already did this to regular security patches with the release of 10. It's been a slow change. Windows 8.1 and older did NOT have forced updates for security patches or service packs. Windows 10 has forced security updates. Looking like Windows 11 and later 10 will have forced service packs. THAT is the issue, that they're forcing these things. Again, its been complained about since 10 was released. Not arguing whether or not using security patches is a good thing or not, obviously security patches in general are a good thing. Feature updates are not worth forcing people onto though. And I still don't think even security patches should be forced. What would've happened if everyone was FORCED onto Windows Vista from XP? Half the computers in the world would've ceased to function until driver fixes were implemented. You don't see that as a problem? Because that's where they're heading. They started with security updates, now we're forcing service packs and "feature updates". Next, mark my words it WILL be forced full OS updates. If you can't follow what they've done, and be able to predict where this is heading, well then I dunno what to tell you. It's pretty obvious where the next logical step would be.

EDIT: DP, see edit above.

So you're not saying that Windows updates fixing botnet attacks is why this forcing updates is a good thing for average people? Okay.....just because "updates (can) protect computers from becoming silently infected from a botnet", doesn't mean we should be forcing them when the average user isn't targeted by those type of attacks. If that type of attack isn't a problem for average people, then why are we forcing updates again then? You know, I "can" get hit by a bus tomorrow. Does that mean we need to forcibly park all buses? Or maybe we need to force people to look before they cross the road by removing their ability to go in the road unless they look? Force and coercion is NEVER the answer. Only reason I still do is RDP and networking. I grew up with networking in Windows 98 and newer. Networking in Linux is different, and not something I'm aware of how to do. I've tried connecting to my Windows NAS in Linux, and I always end up with permissions issues, or I can't find the share, something stupid. Definitely PEBKAC error there, I'll admit it. I also rely heavily on RDP built into Windows, because I refuse to install a third party software for stuff that's been built into the OS for years. There's also a select few games that won't run (yet) on Linux. My reasons why I'm stuck and complaining. I assure you, I've been contemplating Linux daily for a while now. It's just not QUITE there yet. Either that or I'm not quite there yet. You go ahead and determine.

So the K6 rig arrived. The case was nothing at all like I thought it'd be....its completely broken. Huge dent in the bottom, and the front faceplate has all the little plastic knubs broken off (and not in the box either), so the faceplate just falls off. Good news though, flat caps on the motherboard!!!! There was also a Diamond Stealth 64 PCI GPU in there, and an ISA Creative Sound Blaster in there, CT2502 I think model number. Looks like a Creative Soundblaster 16? I also ordered a newer CT4700 PCI sound card for it already, an Adaptec Ultra DMA 133 card, and a Radeon 8500 for it. I do still need to check caps in the PSU, if they're swollen....I'll have to recap since I'm not going to hunt for a "new" AT style PSU. So looks like I'll be in the market for another case, and maybe a few other small bits and bobs. Oh, that DIN5 to PS2 adapter.....the seller immediately responded and offered to ship a replacement. So yay, +1 to ebay finally! Sometimes you find a decent seller that understands things happen outside of your control.

Dude, everyday users are not being targeted. At least not on that kind of a scale. The new scam is now telephone calls and facebook messages. It's always been about money, that's how virus' went from harmless to harmful, when they started demanding money to "fix" the virus. Back in 1999, virus' were just simply an executable that'd open your CD drive up at random, or change your screensaver. Another popular virus back in the day was shutting down a machine remotely. No harm, just funny. Virus' started "for the lolz" back when the internet got traction. They changed to a money making scheme when other people started using them and re-writing them for harm. There's no money on internet virus' anymore since everyone is now aware to keep their browsers and anti-virus up to date, and (for the most part) be careful what you click on. However....that's exactly why the new type of attacks work since they're coming from "trusted" contacts on Facebook or your telephone. Updates don't fix that. Now....YES updates DO fix things that you're talking about such as botnet attacks. But how many average people do you know that have been DDOS'ed or attacked by any other type of botnet? Updates aren't fixing anything for the average user. And big companies probably don't even use Windows 10. My local bank's ATM is still on 7 for example.

If you're the same age as me, and you've been involved with computers as long as me....you'd already know that automatic updates USED to be able to be disabled. You'd also know that automatic updates originally started by just automatically downloading the update and waiting for the user to choose when to install it. Yes, its how updates have been working on Windows 10 this entire time. That's been a complaint of mine and many others for the lifetime of Windows 10 so far. We've been screaming at Microsoft to stop forcing them. Complete version updates however, have still been user choose able, up until this article. Keep up. And why is a specific version of Windows 10 reaching EOL when they already have a new OS? But yet other versions of Windows 10 are not? They're service packs, just like they've always had. Service packs have NEVER been forced in the past, ever. Fact. This is why this is a news article. Another fact, is that "automatic updates" themselves have never been forced up until Windows 10.

Let's see....having my computer turned on and connected to the internet, it automatically downloads and installs updates all on its own. Without my input. I cannot turn that "feature" off either, the only thing I can do is "delay" the updates. They still get applied whether I want them to be or not. That is force. The only choice I have is to disable the internet entirely on the machine if I do NOT want updates. That's not free choice, that's coercion, or in other words, force. This was NOT a "feature" of Windows 8.1 or older. Only 10 and newer.

Fair enough. Learn something new everyday. I still don't think that forcing people to do the update is the answer though. If we're to move onto HTML 5, wouldn't just the mass adoption of HTML 5 over Flash be enough? Adobe already quit supporting Flash a while ago, it would die on its own peacefully without forcing it off through updates. Hey, something we can agree on! I do have one nitpick though, the center paragraph. You say its "nothing new", but it is new. Otherwise this wouldn't be a news article. Forcing updates IS a new thing with Windows 10 and Microsoft. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. Go run even Windows 8.1. Guess what, updates aren't forced there. Forced updates have been a complaint with Windows 10 since it was released.

Agreed, that's been another pain as a repair guy. Those stupid flash installers. Also, not fixed by updates, but rather a change in user behavior since we don't use flash anymore. Some people still somehow get those though. I swear some people, you could put them in a round room and they'd still find a corner.