New TC stats system & progress

[Ducrider]

I'm done with this * farce of a competition. @BWGwill not change rules to get this a fair game. Mainly because he is one of the ones doing it. Team OCN would be the Real winners over the course of the 30 days as we was gaining on team Out of beta. We should have over taken them close to the 30 day mark.Hence a real close race.Then two have swapped out o a ringer card and have made it a run away now. @BWGwill not see that is a issue even though many have said something about it. As team Captian I have to say sorry to TEAM OCN that have shut down my client and will not be a part of this.

[BWG]

Yeah, I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye on things. But, moving on.

 

The Team Captains are mulling over some event changes to try and level out the event as much as we can going forward, but no changes will take place in the middle of a live event. While it's looking a little imbalanced at this time, I want to make sure everyone understands that etf is only supposed to be a fun, casual, competition. What has happened is some GPUS have outperformed others, and we're discussing ways to try and re-balance the event. The goal for the event participants is to get as much work crunched for the whole month.

 

Some tips and reminders, Linux Kernel currently does not support higher ppd Moonshot Projects. If you're on Linux, you'll be at a disadvantage. Also, overclocking and watercooling combined will achieve better results/higher points. Some of these older GPUS seem to do nearly double the PPD on Moonshot WUS. I didn't know it would be so drastic. My 960 went from an average of 327k to somewhere between 550k and 625k, depending on the unit. Newer GPUS either are not pulling them as frequently, or are not anywhere near doubling.

 

While the Moonshot Project has thrown a hard fork in the event, we do support participating and helping with The Moonshot Project. So, what I have setup is an advanced flag, selecting covid-19, and Windows 10. 

 

We'll keep everyone updated on the changes your Team Captains will decide to make together, but please voice any suggestions to your Team Captain via a PM, and they'll bring them up.

 

Thank you all for helping. 

 

Tag @ENTERPRISE

 

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by BWG

[damric]

8 hours ago, Ducrider said:

I'm done with this * farce of a competition. @BWGwill not change rules to get this a fair game. Mainly because he is one of the ones doing it. Team OCN would be the Real winners over the course of the 30 days as we was gaining on team Out of beta. We should have over taken them close to the 30 day mark.Hence a real close race.Then two have swapped out o a ringer card and have made it a run away now. @BWGwill not see that is a issue even though many have said something about it. As team Captian I have to say sorry to TEAM OCN that have shut down my client and will not be a part of this.

Please finish it out. It's wonky, but it's for a good cause.

[Ducrider]

11 minutes ago, damric said:

Please finish it out. It's wonky, but it's for a good cause.

 

Not going to happen. My card is back folding on my passkey. I can put my resources to still crunching.

[BWG]

18 minutes ago, Ducrider said:

 

Not going to happen. My card is back folding on my passkey. I can put my resources to still crunching.

 

I understand why. I'm sorry we couldn't change it right away per your request, but rest assured changes will be discussed, agreed upon with all Team Captains, and put into place to try and level the event out as best we can. 

[damric]

What is the proposed rules change? No overclocking? Rules changes affect everyone and might make MORE people drop out, depending on what they are.

 

I'm an overclocker. Folding is just a benchmark to me. I only joined this foray because I thought of it as an overclocking challenge, but as time went on, I got more interested in the folding aspect, and so did the rest of my family.

 

I'm curious as to what other's perceptions were when they read the contest page and the ETF manual here on ExtremeHW. Did some team members think that running a 300W card with 3% OC headroom would be wise for this challenge? The scores have been tracked for months, and once my tweaker card was in working order it dominated, but that was plain for all to see. We also knew that GTX 960s would also be very competitive since they also generally have a lot of OC headroom, especially the models with voltage tuning.

 

I've been researching, and there are some cards that will most probably perform even better in this challenge than HD 7850 or GTX 960. For instance, look at GTX 465. It has been cut down from the GTX 480 die twice over, which eliminates the weakest clocking cores. I would expect more than 900MHz easily, so 50% OC since stock is 600MHz. That equates to more GFLOPS, which powers folding, so it would be 50% more PPD.

 

 

[firedfly]

9 minutes ago, damric said:

What is the proposed rules change? No overclocking? Rules changes affect everyone and might make MORE people drop out, depending on what they are.

 

There have been a few concerns brought up.  These are the ones I recall:

• LARs database is not accurate enough
• Hardware swapping mid-month to use a better performing card (better performing for ETF points)
• Custom FAH settings to influence which projects you fold (e.g. setting cause preference to COVID-19 for the moonshot projects with higher ppd)

I think the biggest issue is that the extra points you get from overclocking pails in comparison to choosing a card with a low LARs average ppd versus what the card can actually do.  Additionally, some cards/os are able to take advantage of the higher ppd moonshot projects and others aren't.  You can OC your card 50% and still perform worse in the competition than a card like the 960 which loves the moonshot projects.

 

I agree that changes to the rules has a chance of making more people drop out of the competition.  Or it might make it that much more difficult to find new people to join the competition.  The team captains will take this into consideration before making any rule changes.

 

Once we have a better idea of what rule changes *might* be made, I'll be communicating with my team to get their opinions.  So far a few ideas have been floated amongst the team captains, but no discussion has been made.

[damric]

I agree LARS is inaccurate. But I think we can take steps to make it more accurate. Make entrants fold at stock clocks for however long to get a baseline before a card can be entered.

 

I use the "no preference" setting, but I don't see how setting it to a specific cause is cheating. Anyone can do that. Anyone can buy an ebay GTX 960 and moonshot all day for all I care. I think limiting 1 Nvidia card per team should handle that. Get rid of the "wildcard" and add a team slot for CPU folding.

 

I don't pull any weight here, just my observations as a folding newbie and veteran overclocker.

 

 

[Avacado]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Selecting preference of WU cause does NOT guarantee you will get corresponding WU's to that disease. Just like selecting an advanced or beta flag does not guarantee those WU's either. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by Avacado

[BWG]

13 minutes ago, damric said:

I agree LARS is inaccurate. But I think we can take steps to make it more accurate. Make entrants fold at stock clocks for however long to get a baseline before a card can be entered.

 

I use the "no preference" setting, but I don't see how setting it to a specific cause is cheating. Anyone can do that. Anyone can buy an ebay GTX 960 and moonshot all day for all I care. I think limiting 1 Nvidia card per team should handle that. Get rid of the "wildcard" and add a team slot for CPU folding.

 

I don't pull any weight here, just my observations as a folding newbie and veteran overclocker.

 

 

 

It's just the best we could do, you know? People who were in this event previously know how hard it is to make the event fair. But, things were going good until Moonshot started. Also, I agree that @firedflyrunning a stock 960 on air shouldn't smash everybody but me. The card wouldn't have if Moonshot didn't end up being so unpredictable. I think our cards are literally pulling only those units. I don't really understand that. I had no way to account for it.

 

Those ideas are not bad ideas at all. We'll discuss them. Thank you for taking the time to provide them. 

 

8 minutes ago, Avacado said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Selecting preference of WU cause does NOT guarantee you will get corresponding WU's to that disease. Just like selecting an advanced or beta flag does not guarantee those WU's either. 

 

Right, but for some odd reason, it's all we seem to pull on our 960s. The newer and fast cards are not getting many of them. Some, but not every one like these 960s. Is the K4000 doing it to? You had a 15 million point day, and then it sort of trickled down, so likely not.

 

Folding Discord told me advanced is a dead flag, but I swear I still get more PPD using it, and I do.

[firedfly]

1 minute ago, BWG said:

Right, but for some odd reason, it's all we seem to pull on our 960s. The newer and fast cards are not getting many of them. Some, but not every one like these 960s.

 

I have three GPUs folding in Windows with the cause preference set to COVID-19.  All three are reliably getting moonshot projects  right now (either P13456 or P13457 depending on the GPU).  The ppd for the GTX 1660 is slightly higher than normal.  The same for the RX 480.  However, the GTX 960 went from 300-350k ppd to 525-550k ppd once it started folding the moonshot project.  The GTX 960 is the only one folding P13457 (as opposed to other moonshot projects), so perhaps that has something to do with it.

 

For what it's worth, the moonshot projects are not the best type of project for my 3080TI.  When the 3080TI was last folding a moonshot project, it would generally get 7-7.3 million ppd.  There are some Alzheimer's projects (P18201 and P18202) that get the 3080TI about 9-9.3 million ppd.  So, my 3080TI is currently set to prefer Alzheimer's projects.

[BWG]

19 minutes ago, firedfly said:

 

I have three GPUs folding in Windows with the cause preference set to COVID-19.  All three are reliably getting moonshot projects  right now (either P13456 or P13457 depending on the GPU).  The ppd for the GTX 1660 is slightly higher than normal.  The same for the RX 480.  However, the GTX 960 went from 300-350k ppd to 525-550k ppd once it started folding the moonshot project.  The GTX 960 is the only one folding P13457 (as opposed to other moonshot projects), so perhaps that has something to do with it.

 

For what it's worth, the moonshot projects are not the best type of project for my 3080TI.  When the 3080TI was last folding a moonshot project, it would generally get 7-7.3 million ppd.  There are some Alzheimer's projects (P18201 and P18202) that get the 3080TI about 9-9.3 million ppd.  So, my 3080TI is currently set to prefer Alzheimer's projects.

 

Yeah, that's very helpful. At least we may be able to nail this down to 1 GPU. Do you know how long the Moonshot Work Units will last?

 

Edit: I have an E now @Avacado 

Edited August 13, 2021 by BWG

[firedfly]

3 minutes ago, BWG said:

Yeah, that's very helpful. At least we may be able to nail this down to 1 GPU. Do you know how long the Moonshot Work Units will last?

 

Until all the work units have been completed?   From my understanding, Moonshot projects go in cycles.  Once the current work is finished, there is a lull for a while before the next round of work is ready.  I think this last lull was around 6 weeks with no moonshot projects?  That's just a guess on my part.

 

I haven't been folding enough in recent days to know the pattern for the Moonshot projects. When I started folding again in May, I think most projects I folded were Moonshot projects.  I didn't know this was abnormal until that work went away and my ppd plummeted. 

[BWG]

Look at the LARS for 960 as of today. We're using 181,847 from the 31st. It's barely gone up.  

 

 

Edit: Also, they have the 950 shown as being a better folder.

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by BWG

[damric]

From what I have read on F@H, the server tries to assign WUs as best it can to a processor's ability. If they are sending more Moonshot units to GTX 960s because they are good at it, so be it. We need that Covid-19 research. It's not like anyone here can't buy a Maxwell card on ebay if they wanted to. Tomorrow there might be something that runs better on X GPU. We going to piss and moan over that?

 

As far as I can see, only 1 person broke the rules in the ETF manual, and I sure hope he plugs his machine back in because folding 24/7 all month long is the rules.

 

Just my 2 cents as a folding newbie and veteran overclocker.

[damric]

There is a way to create handicaps without using LARS at all.

 

Determine the multiplier by FLOPS based on stock clock speeds. For graphics cards that information is in the techpowerup database for just about any GPU ever made. CUDA seems more efficient but as long as the categories are split by AMD and Nvidia it shouldn't matter. We would need to find the data for CPUs or use linpacks to determine. 

[BWG]

8 minutes ago, damric said:

There is a way to create handicaps without using LARS at all.

 

Determine the multiplier by FLOPS based on stock clock speeds. For graphics cards that information is in the techpowerup database for just about any GPU ever made. CUDA seems more efficient but as long as the categories are split by AMD and Nvidia it shouldn't matter. We would need to find the data for CPUs or use linpacks to determine. 

 

I can't help but mumble to myself that all of this work it would take is above my pay grade here. 

 

I'll have to wrap my head around this idea later when I'm not working. I'm on limited sleep, so 

[Ducrider]

25 minutes ago, damric said:

As far as I can see, only 1 person broke the rules in the ETF manual, and I sure hope he plugs his machine back in because folding 24/7 all month long is the rules.

 

Just my 2 cents as a folding newbie and veteran overclocker.

 

It's not breaking rules when you pull out  

BTW you was not mentioned as being a issue.  You chose.your card from the beginning and have stuck with it. The problem is the two who have switched over to the cards to make this all a joke.  So please do not think anything was said about you. 

[BWG]

1 minute ago, Ducrider said:

 

It's not breaking rules when you pull out  

BTW you was not mentioned as being a issue.  You chose.your card from the beginning and have stuck with it. The problem is the two who have switched over to the cards to make this all a joke.  So please do not think anything was said about you. 

 

Yes, he was very supportive of you, I can back him there @damric

 

But, I told him I've used my 960 all along, and that it was dying right at the end of the month, and that it was always my intention to use it. Still no reprieve from him and I don't understand that at all.

[Ducrider]

4 minutes ago, BWG said:

 

Yes, he was very supportive of you, I can back him there @damric

 

But, I told him I've used my 960 all along, and that it was dying right at the end of the month, and that it was always my intention to use it. Still no reprieve from him and I don't understand that at all.

 

I don't understand how you can not see a problem with those 2 cards and how you was so quick to say you will not change the rules to make this a fair event.  You not doing something about it is the issue.  You want that card to fold moonshot work units do it out side of the competition.  

[BWG]

10 minutes ago, Ducrider said:

 

I don't understand how you can not see a problem with those 2 cards and how you was so quick to say you will not change the rules to make this a fair event.  You not doing something about it is the issue.  You want that card to fold moonshot work units do it out side of the competition.  

 

That was the point of the Team Captains discussing changes. We did that because we know there are flaws. But, you're not going to just threaten us with quitting and single-handedly change the event rules mid-month. Please allow time for @ENTERPRISEto digest this situation. We've been discussing the issues and resolutions publicly here today in this thread with everyone involved. If we deem removing 960 will be needed, meaning the Team Captains feel it is best, not me, then that's what will happen.

 

We're all trying to have a little fun while contributing to folding@home. It's the first official month. It's a unique event that's not for everyone, and there will be growing pains.

Edited August 13, 2021 by BWG

[Ducrider]

10 minutes ago, BWG said:

 

That was the point of the Team Captains discussing changes. We did that because we know there are flaws. But, you're not going to just threaten us with quitting and single-handedly change the event rules mid-month. Please allow time for @ENTERPRISEto digest this situation. We've been discussing the issues and resolutions publicly here today in this thread with everyone involved. If we deem removing 960 will be needed, meaning the Team Captains feel it is best, not me, then that's what will happen.

 

We're all trying to have a little fun while contributing to folding@home. It's the first official month. It's a unique event that's not for everyone, and there will be growing pains.

 

I started to voice my issues about the 960 and was not heard that they are a problem. Just got arguments from the 2 of you that have them. Then you brought it to a pm with just us. While in that you removed me from team captain thread and then blocked me.  Along with tell me you already have a replacement.  So again I still don't understand how you think your decision is best for everyone and not just you two.   It's not. It just benefits the two of you.  Sorts here from everyone that is involved 

[ENTERPRISE]

I am aware of this, so I am seeing the mentions and I have spoken with Ducrider as well. I am in the office right now so I am unable to fully digest everything, I will put it my 2 cents once I have had some time with this. 

 

Thanks all.

[firedfly]

9 minutes ago, Ducrider said:

 

I started to voice my issues about the 960 and was not heard that they are a problem. Just got arguments from the 2 of you that have them. Then you brought it to a pm with just us. While in that you removed me from team captain thread and then blocked me.  Along with tell me you already have a replacement.  So again I still don't understand how you think your decision is best for everyone and not just you two.   It's not. It just benefits the two of you.  Sorts here from everyone that is involved 

 

Before the competition started this month, I was debating which card to use:  3080ti or gtx 960.  Since the rules indicated that I can make 1 hardware swap during the month, I decided to start with the 3080ti.  If that rule had not been in place, I likely would have used the gtx 960.  I'd say it would be 80% likely that is the decision I would have made.  However, since I wasn't required to make a decision for the entire month, I'm not 100% sure what I would have decided.  

 

If I had been using the gtx 960 since the start of the competition, would you still have problems with me using the card?

 

 

[BWG]

Well, I think you removed yourself when you tried to push your suggested changes into immediate effect, or else, but we'll get it all sorted out with E.