Optimal sound card/audio setup w Z-5500 Logitech sound system

[Snakecharmed]

One thing I will say though is to not get too caught up on the wattage of your system. It alone will not tell the whole story. Also, if you put together your own system, know that unlike overclocking, you can't always use all your power in an effective manner if you go way above and beyond the drivers' rated specs. It's good to have additional power on reserve, but it's more important to not underpower your equipment at your desired listening levels and cause clipping. If you're buying an active sub like most home subs are, you're trusting the manufacturer to have sorted all that out already.

 

My 15" Rythmik only has a 370W amp, although there is a 600W option available. In my other car, my JL Audio XD700/5 amp's subwoofer channel only delivers 300W at 2Ω. But that will get the job done for the pair of Kicker CompRT 10" dual coil 4Ω subs I'm considering for a pair of very small custom sealed 0.75 cubic foot enclosures. They will replace the single Kicker loaded enclosure with a CompVT 8" I have now. I got that for cheap several years ago, but it is not getting the job done.

 

Meanwhile, I'm sitting in front of my computer in my 12' 6" square room with a 100W TSC 10" ported sub with the gain slightly over halfway and it's well-matched with my speakers. I don't really need much to hit my upper limit for comfortable extended listening, which is roughly 75 dBA.

 

So yeah, when I see that the Z-5500 advertises 505W RMS total and 188W on the sub for a system that relies on 3" satellites and cost $400 new back when it came out, my gut reaction is unsurprisingly, "FOH." Then I see that the total harmonic distortion listed for the Z-5500 is 10%. Well, I guess that's one way to sell those power numbers.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Snakecharmed

[pio]

1 hour ago, Snakecharmed said:

One thing I will say though is to not get too caught up on the wattage of your system. It alone will not tell the whole story. Also, if you put together your own system, know that unlike overclocking, you can't always use all your power in an effective manner if you go way above and beyond the drivers' rated specs. It's good to have additional power on reserve, but it's more important to not underpower your equipment at your desired listening levels and cause clipping. If you're buying an active sub like most home subs are, you're trusting the manufacturer to have sorted all that out already.

 

My 15" Rythmik only has a 370W amp, although there is a 600W option available. In my other car, my JL Audio XD700/5 amp's subwoofer channel only delivers 300W at 2Ω. But that will get the job done for the pair of Kicker CompRT 10" dual coil 4Ω subs I'm considering for a pair of very small custom sealed 0.75 cubic foot enclosures. They will replace the single Kicker loaded enclosure with a CompVT 8" I have now. I got that for cheap several years ago, but it is not getting the job done.

 

Meanwhile, I'm sitting in front of my computer in my 12' 6" square room with a 100W TSC 10" ported sub with the gain slightly over halfway and it's well-matched with my speakers. I don't really need much to hit my limits for comfortable extended listening, which is roughly 75 dBA.

 

So yeah, when I see that the Z-5500 advertises 505W RMS total and 188W on the sub for a system that relies on 3" satellites and cost $400 new back when it came out, my gut reaction is unsurprisingly, "FOH." Then I see that the total harmonic distortion listed for the Z-5500 is 10%. Well, I guess that's one way to sell those power numbers.

Very well put.  Yup, the manufacturer's lie.  I mean I guess they weren't lying since they state its at 10% THD, but 10% THD will kill your speakers REAL quick.  THD = Total Harmonic Distortion.  Distortion aka "clipping" is what kills speakers, not power alone (usually).

 

You can get comfortable listening levels with just 1w at a desk if you have things tuned properly and are using efficient drivers.  A subwoofer can be comfortable listening levels with as little as like 20-25w so long as its efficient.  Take a tube amp vs a Class D digital amp for a good example.  Tube amp puts out say 12w RMS per channel, and the Class D puts out 45w per channel.  Guess what?  The cleanliness of the Tube amp's sound COULD get just as loud as the 45w of Class D (all depends on the amps in question of course).

 

As I said previously, there's a LOT of things to take into consideration with audio.  But the basics are ACTUAL RMS power and resistance.  Trying to keep at or under 1% THD is also important within your power range, as that's what will keep your sound clean, and it will NOT kill speakers.

[Storm-Chaser]

7 hours ago, Snakecharmed said:

Room size and construction

Are there other seating positions you want to consider optimizing other than right in front of your computer? Obviously, with the size of the room being what it is, if you want to optimize bass response in more areas than just in front of your computer, then perhaps another sub does make sense if you're using the whole room. You wouldn't need to buy two subs at once though. You can start with one and see how it performs. If you just use the area in front of your computer, then one good sub is all you'll need.

No other seated positions. We do, however, play some ping pong here. I like to crank the volume up for that. Not that we will move the subs for that, as you can see from the layout below - the arrows show the location of each sub and the red dots are the small speakers, in total seven of them.. This just will allow you to visualize the room I am working with. I still need to get the satellite speakers in position, right now they are just behind the monitor but still sound very good back there.

 

Side note, for cold weather overclocking I put a small desk in front of the garage door and run everything out to the front of the house. This gives me the best of both worlds when overclocking. I can remain indoors in perfect comfort and heat with a wood burning stove going and on the outside the temp can be -5*F and it's no problem. Hence:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pio]

I hate to be the one to break it to you mate, but you don't exactly have the layout to do 5.1 or 7.1 with your desk in that location.  You'd have speakers right in that area right in front of the couch, blocking the walkway there.  5.1 you need 2 speakers behind you Left and Right.  7.1 you need 4 behind you (well, 2 to your sides and 2 behind you).

Sounds like you're going more after music and having a "fun" place to chill with some tunes to me.  I'd strongly consider a decent 2.1 set.  2 speakers can easily fill a room with sound, and 1 good subwoofer can do the same as well.  Also, most music is recorded in stereo anyway, so surround is just adding effects that the artist never intended to be there.  Added bonus, easier to find proper locations evenly spaced for just 2 speakers left and right.

Edited February 13, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

3 minutes ago, pioneerisloud said:

I hate to be the one to break it to you mate, but you don't exactly have the layout to do 5.1 or 7.1 with your desk in that location.  You'd have speakers right in that area right in front of the couch, blocking the walkway there.

Sounds like you're going more after music and having a "fun" place to chill with some tunes to me.  I'd strongly consider a decent 2.1 set.  2 speakers can easily fill a room with sound, and 1 good subwoofer can do the same as well.  Also, most music is recorded in stereo anyway, so surround is just adding effects that the artist never intended to be there.

I was always under the impression more speakers lead to more immersive sound, like more memory or something. I can in fact pull off 5.1 because there is a wooden window sill to my right that I can mount the speaker on. In reference to the left, It will be bolted to the "hood" you see there in the pic (on the ceiling), mounted and obviously pointed in my direction. They will be reciprocal.

 

Im keeping my new systems, no reason to get rid of them bc what you are recommending would be a downgrade. Besides the z5500 has an option for 2.1 if I wanted it. 

 

In any event I am VERY happy with the way this thing thumps after tweaking some things. You can hear it boom from the end of the driveway, which is about 200 feet away. Now that the subs are on ground level, it's very powerful and crisp. 

 

Both subs complement each other very well. As do the satellite speakers. Sounds so much better than the first day I had it set up where I was not impressed. Plus I like to have options, and redundancy. And I can quickly switch between both systems, to control pitch and have a little more modulation in the frequency spectrum. 

 

Now, it's sounding very very good. Wish I could capture it on a recording for you guys but you cant really get the immersive experience from that. Never the less, I will take a video and show you the progress I've made since day one.

 

 

[pio]

If you can get them properly spaced out, and intend to use the z5500 set, then by all means....go for a sound card for the fine tuning.  If you're happy with it, a sound card will help.

If you DO end up using both sets, make sure the speakers are placed in the same locations as closely together as possible.  You'll end up with what, 2 front lefts, 2 front rights, and then a center and 2 surrounds.  So on your desktop it'll be:

FLFL  C  FR FR 

And then the surrounds above you like you mentioned left and right.  Your surrounds SHOULD be parallel with your front left and right's too, just behind you.  It is a tad better if you have like 4-6 ft between the left and right as well at a desk (varies depending on listening position).  The further apart your left and rights are, the "wider" the sound stage will be.  Go too wide and it doesn't sound right.  Get too close together and you can't tell left vs right (becomes mono).

If you're still after more, you know where we are.   I'd hate to send you down the audio rabbit hole if you can't hear the difference anyway, don't care, or don't want the increased expense while you're building it up.

[Storm-Chaser]

2 minutes ago, pioneerisloud said:

If you can get them properly spaced out, and intend to use the z5500 set, then by all means....go for a sound card for the fine tuning.  If you're happy with it, a sound card will help.

If you DO end up using both sets, make sure the speakers are placed in the same locations as closely together as possible.  You'll end up with what, 2 front lefts, 2 front rights, and then a center and 2 surrounds.  So on your desktop it'll be:

FLFL  C  FR FR 

And then the surrounds above you like you mentioned left and right.  Your surrounds SHOULD be parallel with your front left and right's too, just behind you.  It is a tad better if you have like 4-6 ft between the left and right as well at a desk (varies depending on listening position).  The further apart your left and rights are, the "wider" the sound stage will be.  Go too wide and it doesn't sound right.  Get too close together and you can't tell left vs right (becomes mono).

If you're still after more, you know where we are.   I'd hate to send you down the audio rabbit hole if you can't hear the difference anyway, don't care, or don't want the increased expense while you're building it up.

No you are not sending me down the rabbit hole at all! I'm still going to build a custom audio system for this room!! All of your advice and that of @Snakecharmed and others has not been lost. Because I am committed not only to this project but to have audio become a hobby for me. Im already pre-disposed due to overclocking background. 

 

This thread is an excellent building block and makes a great starting point. I think you guys have sold me on audio since page 2 or so. Just saying, I'm super impressed with this hybrid system right now, especially with the subs back on the ground. Really just marveling over that, considering what it was like on day one. I know my custom audio project will be even more powerful and stronger. 

 

When I do build my custom system this logitech one will go upstairs and be repurposed for the PC on the back porch. 

[Snakecharmed]

Sounds like a plan, @Storm-Chaser. That's good that it's sounding better now than when you first connected everything.

 

I'm trying to piece together the room between the picture above and the videos, but where is the "hood" you mentioned where you'll be mounting the left surround channel? I'm having a challenge figuring out what I'm looking at with the glare of the light in the picture. It took me a bit but I figured out the Israeli flag is covering the window. The way things are stacked along that wall behind your desk is also messing with my depth perception.

[pio]

34 minutes ago, Snakecharmed said:

Sounds like a plan, @Storm-Chaser. That's good that it's sounding better now than when you first connected everything.

 

I'm trying to piece together the room between the picture above and the videos, but where is the "hood" you mentioned where you'll be mounting the left surround channel? I'm having a challenge figuring out what I'm looking at with the glare of the light in the picture. It took me a bit but I figured out the Israeli flag is covering the window. The way things are stacked along that wall behind your desk is also messing with my depth perception.

Yeah I'm having a hard time understanding where the rear channels are going too.

If that corner over there on the right side of your desk is an INSULATED corner (outside corner of the house), that'd be where I'd put the z5500 sub.  I'll bet if you move it there, on the floor, you wouldn't need the z625 set at all for the extra "oomph".  You can try firing it INTO the corner.  However big the port is in inches or centimeters, keep the entire enclosure at LEAST that distance away from whatever wall its firing into, more if you can (don't go too much, play with that distance).  You can also try firing the port towards you away from the wall.  Basically a 90* flip every time starting with the port firing backwards into whatever wall or corner, move it, test it, try again.  The port is where the noise is coming from.  If its firing downward then nevermind, won't matter lol.  But if you play with the 4 different directions it can face, in THAT corner (assuming its a good corner), I'll bet you'll find a super sweet spot and have a new love for the z5500 sub.  It still won't get low low, but it'll come more to life.  And I'll bet, at that point, you'd be more willing to lose the z625 set out of the equation.

 

Do that and get your front left and right put in the right spots, try out 2.1 mode to start, and see how you like how that sounds.  If you do, place the other 3 speakers properly and go from there.  Having them all in a basically mono configuration bouncing off the wall behind your monitor like that is only adding fill, not detail.  Details are how you get the music to come alive.

Edited February 13, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

8 hours ago, Snakecharmed said:

Sounds like a plan, @Storm-Chaser. That's good that it's sounding better now than when you first connected everything.

 

I'm trying to piece together the room between the picture above and the videos, but where is the "hood" you mentioned where you'll be mounting the left surround channel? I'm having a challenge figuring out what I'm looking at with the glare of the light in the picture. It took me a bit but I figured out the Israeli flag is covering the window. The way things are stacked along that wall behind your desk is also messing with my depth perception.

 

So I just snapped a couple more pictures. This is a ground floor area originally doubled as a two car garage and before that, for horses. In this iteration, you will see the two doors are now covered with silver reflective insulation to keep the heat in, so the wall straight ahead past my desk is where the doors are. The window sill to my right is where the Israeli flag hangs, and so the right rear speaker will be mounted to that window frame. The left rear speaker will be mounted from the hood itself. So not perfect symmetry but thats okay. 

 

Yeah that first picture was bad, to much glare. These aren't much better but at least you can see the hood. 

 

 

 

The window frame is wooden so I don't have to worry about destroying the sheetrock when mounting the right rear speaker.

 

 

This picture is especially bad. But the z5500 woofer is in the foreground. the z625 is just beyond my chair, in the background. 

 

Again both subs are visible in this shot.

 

The front of the house is obviously on this side, you can just see the hood coming into view in the far right hand corner of the screen. 

 

 

A better shot of the hood itself.

A bet

Edited February 13, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[Alex]

Y'all need some Marie Kondo

[Storm-Chaser]

18 minutes ago, Alex said:

Y'all need some Marie Kondo

It doubles as a garage / shop so it's way too difficult to keep it in perfect shape, gets so much use. More of a man cave than anything else. Like a lot of garages, real estate is in demand, so things are piled up. It's a working area so it appears cluttered, but floor is swept every day.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[Storm-Chaser]

She's tuned real good or at least within my reach of limited audio knowledge. TBH its killer. Check my youtube channel for other audio tests as well, as I just uploaded a couple more videos today

 

 

[OTHG_Chef]

Interesting thread. Pioneerisloud and Snackcharmed are giving very sound advice. You think a system sounds great, and it may, until you hear a different setup and didn't realize how much sound you were missing before. If you are willing to spend some cash to upgrade to recommendations given, you would be blown away. Room acoustics and speaker placement can make a huge difference also. I also have a large room that was converted from a two car garage. I have a simple Klipsch Pro Media 2.1 hooked up yo a Schiit Modi/Magni stack that I always thought sounded very good for what it is a large room. I also have a Yamaha receiver that I bought with some inexpensive Polk surround speakers that wasn't as crisp as the small Klipsch. Last May my daughter and son in law bought a new house that has in wall speakers for surround sound and my son in law let me use his Paradigm tower speakers and 15" Velodyne sub. Man what a setup, hear sounds in the music I never knew was there. 

 

Love to see the Ping Pong table! Avid players here. 

 

If that setup was mine, I would hang both of the rear speakers from the "hood" behind you equal distance apart compared to the chair. that way you will get a decent surround set up. Enjoy the audio journey, it can be a rabbit hole

 

Heres a few pics of mine.  I cant get them to be right side up no matter configuration in folder.

 

[Storm-Chaser]

6 minutes ago, OTHG_Chef said:

If you are willing to spend some cash to upgrade to recommendations given, you would be blown away.

Make no mistake Im all in for the custom audio, Im already researching the hardware side of this upgrade! Should definitely be a thrill building a custom system, cant imagine its too far off from the thrill of building a computer. The Logitech will be repurposed in a couple months to make way for the new system for which I am already assessing parts and sound theory. In my last post I was just reflecting on the logitechs, not to keep them but I was still impressed. There is a small earthquake that happens wheneveer the beat drops and both subs together will rattle windows on the 3rd floor. It's absolutely sick!

 

 

 

[Storm-Chaser]

23 minutes ago, OTHG_Chef said:

Love to see the Ping Pong table! Avid players here. 

Us too. My brother and I and some friends. We used to play all over, VT, NY, Canada, and other places. I never competed like my brother did but I did take it seriously and was still the ping pong champion at my high school! 

 

Are those all sheets of rubber on the wall?? My current paddle is Yasaka Extra offensive 7 power. paired with Tibhar 5Q rubber. Makes for a decent lowerish-high end setup. Overall it's nothing special but it has a good balance all around and lots of power if you want it..

Edited February 13, 2022 by Storm-Chaser

[Storm-Chaser]

On 12/02/2022 at 21:05, Snakecharmed said:

Then I see that the total harmonic distortion listed for the Z-5500 is 10%. Well, I guess that's one way to sell those power numbers.

Is that number reliable and is that a good score?

 

[pio]

54 minutes ago, Storm-Chaser said:

Is that number reliable and is that a good score?

 

1% or below is where you want to be.  10% is pretty bad.  THD = Total Harmonic Distortion.

 

Less distortion means cleaner sound.  More distortion means more likely to blow equipment.  It CAN also cause hearing loss if at loud levels.

[Snakecharmed]

18 hours ago, Storm-Chaser said:

Is that number reliable and is that a good score?

 

 

To add to what pioneerisloud said, 10% is what happens when you decide to send it with your audio gear, and then think it's appropriate to record those numbers and compare them to what honorable audio companies do.

 

Companies like Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer, Denon, Marantz, and other mainstays of the industry will list the rated power output of their amplifiers with 0.06-0.08% THD, so their numbers are going to represent clean power rather than running the gear ragged so they can advertise how high the wattage it is. Some companies may play it a little more loose than others and list at 0.9% THD, but advertising your power rating at 10% THD is basically saying that you don't care about making a good product, you just want the high wattage number for marketing.

 

You know, if it wasn't for Sony messing up my narrative at 0.9%, I would say you could think of THD and BAC similarly. I've never really regarded Sony that highly for amplifiers though, so whatever. Under 1% is fine.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Snakecharmed

[Storm-Chaser]

How bad is this clipping problem for my speakers? I notice peace equalizer has an option to prevent clipping, so that seems to be effective for the time being. What is the major concern with clipping and is it the same thing as distortion/rattle from a subwoofer resulting from too much volume?

[Snakecharmed]

Clipping is what happens when you underpower your speakers and try to drive them at a volume beyond what the amp is capable of delivering. I wouldn't be concerned about that because your Logitechs are going to be (Should be? Better be. I don't trust anything once they started citing 10% THD numbers) matched out of the box. You didn't pick out a separate amp and set of speakers. However, it is something you'll pay attention to when you build a system later.

 

I think this link explains it all in better detail than I can. Note that this is targeted towards mobile audio, where the subwoofer is often passive (standalone driver, not in an enclosure with a built-in amp, so you have to buy your own amp to match the driver). The same concepts apply for passive full-range speakers as well.

 

Learn: Why subwoofers blow: slam, bang, pop, and sizzle

WWW.CRUTCHFIELD.COM

---

Too much power or distortion damages subwoofers

 

[pio]

9 hours ago, Storm-Chaser said:

How bad is this clipping problem for my speakers? I notice peace equalizer has an option to prevent clipping, so that seems to be effective for the time being. What is the major concern with clipping and is it the same thing as distortion/rattle from a subwoofer resulting from too much volume?

Snakecharmed nailed it above, but I'll go ahead and use a common example.

 

A LOT of people buy their sub / bass packages at Walmart or BestBuy for their cars.  When they pickup their car equipment there, the most common package would be a Kicker subwoofer and some form of a 2 channel amplifier.  The amp is capable of, let's say 100w RMS x2 or bridged at 200w x1 RMS.  They take that 200w RMS, and try to power a 400w RMS subwoofer.  It doesn't output "enough" sound for them, so they'll crank the gain knob and the bass boost knob to compensate.  (Gain is NOT a volume control, and bass boost should always be 0).  As a result of cranking the knobs, it introduces clipping.

 

Clipping, is when you take the input signal, and amplify it to the point where its cutting off the sine waves that make up the music.  Take a look at this example sine wave below.  This is a GOOD example.  The left is a clean signal.  The right is a "clipped" signal.

 

 

In order for your speakers to function, subwoofers included (and priority with clipping since you can't hear it), they need to move backwards and forwards.  Obviously.  What a lot of people don't understand is that movement is supposed to be very smooth and continuous.  It moves forward on the upwards part of the sine wave, and the speaker will suck inwards on the bottom part of the wave.  When you "clip" the wave so its flat on the top and bottom, what you're doing is FORCING your speaker to stay stationary with power going through it at the top and bottom of that wave (forward or inward to the speaker).  That stationary power flowing through the coil will cause HEAT.  It can clip for just a fraction of a second and it can do this, it doesn't have to be a long period of time.  Heat will melt your coils and cause the speaker to blow.  If you're giving the speaker a CLEAN signal (not clipped), the speaker continuously moves forward and backward and never gets "stuck" in one spot or the other for too long with power applied.  The movement of the speaker also causes a cooling effect for the coil and glue.  If its stuck out for 1/2 a second, that's 1/2 a second where its not getting any active cooling.

 

This is why its okay to overpower your speakers, but never a "good idea" to underpower your speakers.  You can underpower so long as you keep the signal clean, but as soon as you start introducing clipping and distortion, that's when it damages things.  This is also why I stated earlier to NEVER boost frequencies, but instead lower the rest.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

23 hours ago, pioneerisloud said:

 

 

 

Question for you guys. I have two other satellite Logitech speakers I want to repurpose for the Z5300 system. The original satellite speakers are blown. So that would allow me to connect 9 total satellite speakers for this system. 

 

Both of these speakers have had the RCA ends clipped but the speakers themselves work fine. Is it possible re-wire a new RCA end on both? Is it fairly straight forward, like a two wire connection or is there some PITA thing I have to do to re-attach the ends?

[pio]

1 hour ago, Storm-Chaser said:

 

 

Question for you guys. I have two other satellite Logitech speakers I want to repurpose for the Z5300 system. The original satellite speakers are blown. So that would allow me to connect 9 total satellite speakers for this system. 

 

Both of these speakers have had the RCA ends clipped but the speakers themselves work fine. Is it possible re-wire a new RCA end on both? Is it fairly straight forward, like a two wire connection or is there some PITA thing I have to do to re-attach the ends?

You'll very likely blow your amplifier.  It's part of Ohm's law.  Your speakers have a resistance.  For sake of argument, let's say they're 8ohm satellite speakers.  Note, this is ALL just examples here, but these examples work exactly the same on any audio setup.  If you take 2x 8ohm speakers and wire them together, depending on how you wire them up you'll have 4ohm or 16ohm.  Not 8.  Your amplifier is expecting 8ohms.  Now......16ohms won't hurt anything but you'll half the power output of the amplifier to each speaker.  So if its 100w on that channel at 8ohms, you're now getting 50w at 16ohm per speaker.  If you lower down to 4ohm, you'll get 200w instead of 100w and each speaker gets the full 100w.

 

The problem here, is those Logitech systems are paired, and designed specifically for the speakers they come with.  Yes, you CAN use different speakers, but you have to be 100% for sure they're the same resistance as the old ones.  It can be higher, but not lower as lower will cause damage to the amp (since its not designed for lower resistance).  But again, higher resistance will be less power output.

 

Adding more speakers isn't going to magically make those any better.  Better speakers will but then you're still at the mercy of the Logitech amplifier setup.  More of the same small speakers will not.  I still say you're better off just using them as they're presented in the box.

 

There is no magical cure for an all in one setup like that.  It's like trying to add a 3090Ti to a Dell PC.  Yes, it'll work, but at the end of the day you might kill the PSU, and its still just a Dell.

Edited February 17, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Storm-Chaser]

Very good thread guys you've been generous with your knowledge, I like that (most people are not). I'm going to budget about $500 for this project next month. Will keep you updated. Excited to build it myself and get to reap the fruits of my labor by keeping the neighbors up all night. BOOM! 

 

The z5300 subwoofer is actually bad, once you turn the volume up it just goes off the deep end with distortion. So I'm going to take it to the table saw and dismantle it. See if I can salvage it by replacing just the speaker, or at least get the theory down as to it's inner workings so I can design my own later.