NVIDIA might have a problem with some RTX 4090 catching fire

[Mr. Fox]

Newer is always better, right? I wonder if NVIDIA gets a royalty or license fee on the new PSUs built with their proprietary new connector?

NVIDIA might have a problem with some RTX 4090 catching fire | Videocardz

 

Two redditors report that their RTX 4090 graphics cards are now dead, and melted power connectors might be the reason why. Redditors reggie_gakil and NoDuelsPolicyy today posted photos of their RTX 4090 graphics cards with melted 16-pin (aka 12VHPWR) connectors. Their cards have gone bust, and NVIDIA’s new 600W might have been the culprit.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Mr. Fox

[J7SC_Orion]

Fortunately, I had read enough about the new connector to be extra careful when hooking up my 4090 to the PSU via that 4-into-1 dongle. Still, worth keeping a watchful eye on....I just posted my musings on  the subject at another forum...so some cut and paste action below:

 

"I am not too thrilled about this new power connector, either. I suppose that if they would have gone for a traditional 4x 8 pin PCIe, the pcbs would have been wider by at least an inch - besides, it is clear that they wanted to move the power delivery as close to the actual die as possible.

Still, I noticed before that on my 3090 with 3x 8 pin PCIe and 520 W vbios, each of the PCIe cables (stock ones that come with Seasonic Prime Platinum PX 1300) would get warm - not hot, but warm during heavy GPU loads. At the same time, with a full waterblock, thermal putty and all that, the 3090's VRM didn't exceeded mid 30s C (HWInfo has sensors for that for the 3090 Strix).

With these 4 into 1 dongles for the 4090, it is clear that all the PCIe supply cables are bunching together to join into a single connector with a much smaller total area than 4x 8 pin PCIE would have had...so clearly less area for heat dissipation while transferring more energy. Then there is this whole thing about 'do not bend' for 3 cm to 3.5 cm cable length at the joint end. I understand why, but for a consumer product that goes into people's homes, it is worth questioning these release decisions...Hopefully, most PSU manufacturers will make the required new cables w/o dongle available, even for some older models."

 

FYI, I have partially melted some 'traditional' PCIe 8 pin plugs on a GPU before, and that wasn't even during HWBot with HEDT and quad cards pulling more than a combined 3000 W 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by J7SC_Orion

[iamjanco]

 

You can only squeeze so much current through the weakest link in a circuit before something fries; the weakest link typically being where electrical connections are made in a circuit. Forego proper strain relief resulting in too much wiggle room, couple that with exceeding recommended maximum number of connector mating cycles, toss in using mixed metals in connector pins (e.g., tin plated male pins used with gold plated female pins, etc.), exceed the current carrying capacities of any part in the puzzle, etc., and you're asking for eventual trouble. 

 

Make it worse by pulling neat tricks like swapping out current limiting resistors that allow you to shoehorn even more power into your processors, etc., and, well, you might get what you're asking for or not, even if unintentionally (but often unintelligently). 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by iamjanco

[Mr. Fox]

38 minutes ago, iamjanco said:

 

You can only squeeze so much current through the weakest link in a circuit before something fries. It's the nature of the beast and a bigger shoehorn won't help.

I have lightly cinged the insulation on my GPU power cables with an extreme overclock and pulling 1000W+ through them with my 3090 KPE and my shunt-modded 2080 Ti with a 2000W vBIOS, but I suspect these boys were not doing anything nearly that crazy. No way it should have happened if it were made correctly. It should have been designed to handle far in excess of the wattage a stock 4090 is capable of pulling with a crippled stock vBIOS. Bottom line is, this was an example of a stupid change for the sake of change, and not a matter of necessity, and the public are their guinea pigs (as usual).

  

1 hour ago, J7SC_Orion said:

FYI, I have partially melted some 'traditional' PCIe 8 pin plugs on a GPU before, and that wasn't even during HWBot with HEDT and quad cards pulling more than a combined 3000 W 

Exactly. No excuse for it in this example. Faulty engineering with a fat price tag.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Mr. Fox

[iamjanco]

^Yeah, I get that (after all, this is EXTREMEHW dot net).

 

Gonna hit the sack now, but for anyone who's interested, here's some Amphenol source material for the parts we're talking about:

 

GS-12-1706 GENERAL PRODUCT SPECIFICATION
Minitek Pwr CEM-5 12VHPWR Wire to Board Connectors
https://www.mouser.com/pdfDocs/gs-12-1706.pdf

 

GS-20-0704 Application Specification
Minitek Pwr CEM-5 12VHPWR Wire to Board Connectors
https://www.mouser.com/pdfDocs/gs-20-0704.pdf

 

Added (Amphenol's main page for the same product):

Minitek® Pwr CEM-5 PCIe® Connector System

 

In news elsewhere...

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by iamjanco

[schuck6566]

10 hours ago, iamjanco said:

^Yeah, I get that (after all, this is EXTREMEHW dot net).

 

Gonna hit the sack now, but for anyone who's interested, here's some Amphenol source material for the parts we're talking about:

 

GS-12-1706 GENERAL PRODUCT SPECIFICATION
Minitek Pwr CEM-5 12VHPWR Wire to Board Connectors
https://www.mouser.com/pdfDocs/gs-12-1706.pdf

 

GS-20-0704 Application Specification
Minitek Pwr CEM-5 12VHPWR Wire to Board Connectors
https://www.mouser.com/pdfDocs/gs-20-0704.pdf

 

Added (Amphenol's main page for the same product):

Minitek® Pwr CEM-5 PCIe® Connector System

 

In news elsewhere...

 

 

It is safe to upgrade now, Nvidia saves you money. It's not only a video card,it's a marshmallow cooker...

Plus we have Linus take on the subject now....

Edited October 25, 2022 by schuck6566
added Linus' take on the subject...

[pio]

Sigh, I hate being right. -_-  I knew that new 12 pin connector was a bad idea from the get go.  Oh no, it'll be fine.....yeah, uh huh...... 

 

What's worse is that as was mentioned earlier, the change was done for the sake of change alone and not out of necessity.  There's no reason they couldn't have used 8pin connectors and spread that gigantic load out a little further.  So what if you have to use 32 pins in total to connect your GPU?  All of those extra wires are a necessity in grounding, in wire gauge, and in connector quantity.  On 4x 8pin if one ground or +12v wire has a bad connection somewhere, its not that big of a deal.  It is, but its not.  On these new 12pin connectors, if one wire or connection point has ANY sort of a problem at all.....poof.  Carrying twice the amount of power through half the wiring is never a good idea in DC power.

Edited October 25, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Sir Beregond]

Nvidia probably:

 

But seriously, I was never against the idea of developing a new standard that consolidated PCIe power as we started getting cards with 3 or even 4 8-pins. But this 12VHPWR 16-pin ain't it. Its clear this is far too dainty for what they are trying to do with it. 

[iamjanco]

See my post over at OCN.

[J7SC_Orion]

wanna see s.th. related (no, its not a 12VHPWR...) that will keep you > 'warm and fuzzy' ?

[ENTERPRISE]

I was never a fan of the new connector. Cramming all that power down into a single point was just screaming for trouble and I wondered when we would start seeing these issues. Furthermore this problem will only get worse with Overclocking. I would take a longer GPU with 3x8 Pin connection points any day. As far as im concerned I would rather balance the load over 3x connections rather than cram it down one cable. 

 

I think that this was rushed by Nvidia and perhaps should have consulted with the AIB's/ well known enthusiasts to discover potential problems like this. Sure I could maybe see this connection being fine on the founders edition, but not the enthusiast level cards. 

 

Im hoping they revise this, even if keeping the same cable form factor, they should look to load balance over at least 2x connectors to mitigate overload/overheating. 

 

Im not an electronic engineer and im sure others know much more on the topic but I would think most of this is common sense. 

[J7SC_Orion]

8 hours ago, ENTERPRISE said:

I was never a fan of the new connector. Cramming all that power down into a single point was just screaming for trouble and I wondered when we would start seeing these issues. Furthermore this problem will only get worse with Overclocking. I would take a longer GPU with 3x8 Pin connection points any day. As far as im concerned I would rather balance the load over 3x connections rather than cram it down one cable. 

 

I think that this was rushed by Nvidia and perhaps should have consulted with the AIB's/ well known enthusiasts to discover potential problems like this. Sure I could maybe see this connection being fine on the founders edition, but not the enthusiast level cards. 

 

Im hoping they revise this, even if keeping the same cable form factor, they should look to load balance over at least 2x connectors to mitigate overload/overheating. 

 

Im not an electronic engineer and im sure others know much more on the topic but I would think most of this is common sense. 

   

Fortunately, Seasonic is offering a single strand 12VHPWR PSU cable - apparently for free if you bought a new one recently (which I did, 2x PX 1300). Even if there's a small cost, I think it is a wise investment. For the record, I haven't had any problem with that hideous 4-into-1 dongle on my RTX 4090, though I was careful when installing it re. bending and twisting as I had read about it before. In addition, I mounted a 120mm fan pointing at the back of the card which also cools that whole power connector plus the cables leading to it.

[schuck6566]

After reading this thread and the one on ocn, I figured out the solution. Just make all the 4090's TOP mount cards so the card stands upright and has plenty of room now for the cables to not have to bend.... Also,it could allow for heat exhaust on a blower type card.   Just set a rack over the exhaust port and have a coffee warmer on your rig!

[Sir Beregond]

3 hours ago, schuck6566 said:

After reading this thread and the one on ocn, I figured out the solution. Just make all the 4090's TOP mount cards so the card stands upright and has plenty of room now for the cables to not have to bend.... Also,it could allow for heat exhaust on a blower type card.   Just set a rack over the exhaust port and have a coffee warmer on your rig!

I'm still waiting for the cooking eggs memes to make a comeback. But then again, these coolers are probably good enough despite the insane power draw.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Sir Beregond

[Avacado]

30 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

I'm still waiting for the cooking eggs memes to make a comeback. But then again, these coolers are probably good enough despite the insane power draw.

 

 FERMI!!!! 

[iamjanco]

gonna sell the idea to leather jacket

 

[bonami2]

Should have used TYPE C connector. I mean it good up to like 240w just need 4 

Edited October 26, 2022 by bonami2

[J7SC_Orion]

Now, now, now...I wonder where you folks have been all these years re. melting connectors long before the hideous dongle thing (soon to be replaced) for 4090s...? I've got a melted PCIe 8 pin connector as well, though pics below are from others per the interweb

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

also, a hideous & temporary 4-into-1 dongle =/= lack of fun...below is the 4K average for ~ 40 games as tested by TechPowerUp

 

[iamjanco]

It's not about those older connectors which were problematic because their users really were heavy handed and/or didn't have a clue; it's about the really poor design decisions that went into this new pos that's supposed to handle up to 1,368 watts (9.5amps x 12pins x 12volts).

 

 

sorry, bubba, no, it's not.

Edited October 26, 2022 by iamjanco

[J7SC_Orion]

...it's an Intel spec, 600W per text below 

 

It also comes down to compliant PSUs, and the 'good riddance' to the short-term dongle solution during the PSU transitional phase.

[iamjanco]

1 hour ago, J7SC_Orion said:

...it's an Intel spec, 600W per text below 

 

und?

 

1 hour ago, J7SC_Orion said:

It also comes down to compliant PSUs, and the 'good riddance' to the short-term dongle solution during the PSU transitional phase.

 

I'll grant you that about the compliant psu, but the spec is still fubar for all practical purposes. That's a military term, btw, fubar. I could have also used goat rope, cluster you-know-what, or what have you. It's obvious enough thought didn't go into it (e.g., they didn't consider the usecase that clueless, heavy handed users like some 'pc enthusiasts' might put too much strain on that connector assembly's mating parts).  There is no argument (rhetorically speaking) someone could present to me that would make me agree that the folks who put the spec together and blessed it for pci-sig aren't at fault. 

 

Source.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2022 by iamjanco

[pio]

  

2 hours ago, J7SC_Orion said:

Now, now, now...I wonder where you folks have been all these years re. melting connectors long before the hideous dongle thing (soon to be replaced) for 4090s...? I've got a melted PCIe 8 pin connector as well, though pics below are from others per the interweb

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

also, a hideous & temporary 4-into-1 dongle =/= lack of fun...below is the 4K average for ~ 40 games as tested by TechPowerUp

 

I'm not saying that the 8pin and 6pin cables of past aren't subject to failure.  But let's be honest here for a moment, a HUGE portion of those failures were user error.  This new 12pin connector is so incredibly fragile you literally cannot bend it for 35mm.  This means you cannot horizontally mount ANY GPU's that require this connector, they absolutely must be vertically mounted.  So, what's going to happen when people that do NOT have vertical mount cases get their hands on these cards?

 

I've abused the snot out of most of my cables, not even going to lie about that.  And I've only caused a fire twice and it was by complete accident, and usually not even the cable at fault but a problem with load distribution or something else.  Seriously, somebody send me a 4090, and I can almost guarantee you I'll find a way to burn it to the ground in a week or less, without even really doing anything outside of the norm.  That is NOT okay.

You're right that its fine if you know the limitations.  And to be honest, it'd probably be just fine for lower wattage cards.  Maybe power supply manufacturers will step in with "fixed" cables soon or something?  Hard to say.  But so far, this is turning out to be a big problem.  The GPU is solid, but their push to go with this new stupid plug instead of using the tried and true 8pins is astonishing.

Edited October 27, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[J7SC_Orion]

...worth a quick view 

 

 

[iamjanco]

The CableMod cable might provide a bit more strain relief with that half shelf surrounding the connecter; I'd personally like to see a full shell that would allow a user to securely fasten the connector to its mating connector, sort of like a db9 or db15. That won't happen of course because the height of a normally mounted card with such connectors would likely preclude closing most case doors (except for very deep cases perhaps). 

 

The point I think Jay missed out on though is it's not the bending of the cable per se that's causing the problem; it's the mismatch between pin connections in the two mating connectors that can happen if they're not seated together properly; the assumption being that because of the way power input is managed by that circuit, it  forces excessive current to travel through the connections offering lessor resistance, in-turn exceeding the current carrying capacities of those circuits; followed by the buildup of excessive heat which results in melting, then burning plastic, followed eventually by fire if a stop isn't put to it all...

 

 

I'm betting that had Jay diked one or more wires feeding into that connector, he wouldn't have had any trouble duplicating the issue.

 

Anyway, if you want to loan me your card and cables I'd gladly put that hypothesis to the test 

Edited October 27, 2022 by iamjanco

[J7SC_Orion]

I think Jay did that mismatch / not seated right test a well (timestamp)