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Path tracing: Some early observations


J7SC_Orion

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I am starting this thread to dive deeper into path tracing. I will add some of my own results (quantitative and qualitative) in subsequent posts, but here is a very good video by Gamers Nexus to introduce path tracing and its 'costs' in Cyberpunk 2077 / patch 1.62

 

 

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Path tracing certainly seems to be an exciting technology on the way to more 'real' imaging of how we see the world. Not all that long ago, 'video games' looked something like this...

 

spacer.png

 

 

...many eons and new graphics technologies later, we finally arrived at more wide-spread use of 'ray tracing' around 2018/19. For example, all my fav games have some sort of ray tracing now, though there are still a lot of other nice games out there that do not make any or much use of ray tracing. Still, path tracing could shape up to be a fairly big thing, if one is to believe NVidia which certainly does have 'influence' in the graphics market (side bar: I own both AMD and NVidia GPUs...). Then there is the upcoming Unreal 5.x, with some sample vids in > this thread 

 

Whether path tracing will get a bigger foothold in the future also depends in part on AI upscaling such as DLSS 2/3/X and also AMD's and Intel's similar technologies - AMD's FSR 2.1 for example is also quite impressive already...in any case, running 4K 'native' with full ray tracing (never mind path tracing) but without any sort of decent upscaling tech is not a fun experience, IMO.

 

Edited by J7SC_Orion

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Cyberpunk 2077 has one of the best implementations of ray tracing in video games, and it has now added path tracing as well (currently only for NVidia RTX 4xxx).  Below is a comparison for 4K ultra / DLSS 3 'Quality'/ FrameGen / NVReflex on my RTX 4090, clocked fairly high. On the left is the RTX Psycho' setting (RTX Ultra and 'Psycho' are fairly close in visual fidelity and fps), on the right is RTX 'Overdrive' that incorporates path tracing...all other settings and oc-profiles are the same. Normally, I restrict game play to the low-to-mid 400 W range and use a less aggressive oc profile, but I also wanted to see how the power consumption differed with the new path tracing using the same build-in benchmark... 

 

Path tracing does add some extra quality in many scenes, but it is not quite dramatic enough (yet) IMO, to account for or a loss of ~50 fps when compared to the RTX Ultra or Psycho. In fairness, 1.) it is still a 'Technology Preview', and...

 

CP2077_OD_PSYCHO_comp.thumb.jpg.6cff8164748f59ca97a4120a726095a5.jpg

 

 

...2.) in some scenes, it becomes quite magical and outright jaw dropping, especially when viewed on a big OLED ...that tech being discussed with @Sir Beregond @bonami2 and many other graphics aficionados > here 

 

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Here are some of my fav screenshots with the new path traced tech. These are the original size (4K) and .png to try to get some visual fidelity across...later on, I will use smaller .jpg conversions.

 

Screenshot(440).thumb.png.b5b1e55a6b846bad83b150cf3c85d317.png

 

Screenshot(455).thumb.png.b00ad4fffdf566ce21fea0c50f6d9127.png

 

Screenshot(418).thumb.png.36f52408fbc80a951df1eb185b93cf74.png

 

Screenshot(430).thumb.png.d73579a92d1d75a79bdf22964c9ab80c.png

 

Screenshot(446).thumb.png.2ec9680a7e87190a5c7a9774a121e14d.png

 

---

 

It would be foolish to judge path tracing on the basis of just one game, but it clearly does show tremendous promise, albeit at a very high resource cost...if you have a system you use for 4K and can get decent fps and frame times at DLSS 2, 3 Quality or FSR 2, you are not missing out that much yet compared to the full-on path tracing, but if you can run path tracing with your RTX 4xxx (and later gens), you're in for a treat, with more to come...😀

 

 

 

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If they implement this in GTA 6. Cyberpunk will be history. With Rockstar use of better texture.

 

Just will need a 5999ti quad mcm 🤣

 

 

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Just sitting here with my 1080 Ti not even having seen RT in person before lol

 

I really hope path tracing takes off, I want to see more implementations of it.... and makes me want to wait for a 5xxx class card

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4 hours ago, Alex said:

Just sitting here with my 1080 Ti not even having seen RT in person before lol

 

I really hope path tracing takes off, I want to see more implementations of it.... and makes me want to wait for a 5xxx class card

My experience with rt even on max out is dissapointing. The newer version do seem to be ways better tho.  Am all in for improved light but reflection on street is exagerated.

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So far tried RT in Control and Witcher 3. Control I definitely noticed a difference, but I found some negatives using DLSS, such as rooms with mirrors in them. Witcher 3 looked great, but it taxed the hell out of my 3080 Ti and I had to turn some of the RT off. I also was hitting VRAM limits and activating slideshow mode with the 12GB buffer on 4k. DLSS balanced mode helped here and didn't notice any visual issues with it, but still had slideshow mode here and there.

 

I haven't tried any other RT games yet.

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Ray Tracing and Path Tracing will eventually become the norm for games pushing the boundaries (visuals.) Both these technologies have been around for quite some time. Just not for gaming.

 

These aren’t gimmicks. This isn’t even really a question. It’s just the first time (~2018) we’ve had real-time rendering for both techniques. 

 

Just consider for a moment that it would take large, render farms, which would be dense racks full of CPUs / GPUs, a considerable amount of time and effort to produce millions of static frames that are stitched together for movies at 24fps. 
 

Now, whilst we don’t have that level of accuracy (upscaled resolution, noise, limited number of bounces etc.) compared to films, we are pretty close to getting that effect in real-time.

 

The reality is that the scene geometry needs to be pretty simple with current hardware at modern resolutions. Otherwise the hardware gets choked. No surprise to anyone here

 

DLSS and all these upscalers in my mind, are simply the short-to-mid term solutions to help developers keep this technology viable and usable whilst developers learn how to leverage the new tools in a rendering pipeline. Also, most importantly, ship products that sell to help drive the purchase of more RT / PT capable hardware.

 

Maybe there will be more advancements in upscaling to help significantly offset the computation load and, that technology will become the norm. That I don’t know. I don’t have a crystal ball but until we’re there, I wouldn’t rely on them when native remains superior and that SHOULD be the target if we’re aiming for CG Film level fidelity.

 

My honest gut is that we’re probably closer in the range of 10 years to 15 out before we meet that point in the curve. The point where modern games with modern features at modern resolutions can be rendered with full path tracing in real time but… I believe it will come.

 

I’m very happy to see some developers continue to get sponsored or maybe more objectively, continue to collaborate with Nvidia, AMD to implement this tech because it will drive the medium forward.

 

Just on the consumer side, I know it’s futile to invest so heavily into RT / PT right now. Kudos to those who can afford to buy and play with 4090s and CP2077 and I hope this tech to grows exponentially with more R&D.

 

Hard to ignore the complexity and costs of producing the latest and greatest GPU dies, at scale, whilst utilizing the latest tech.

 

Anyway, this is just a long winded post to say… I love ray tracing and path tracing, but i’ll be on the sidelines for now until it becomes viable without significant compromise.

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13 hours ago, Slaughtahouse said:

Ray Tracing and Path Tracing will eventually become the norm for games pushing the boundaries (visuals.) Both these technologies have been around for quite some time. Just not for gaming.

 

These aren’t gimmicks. This isn’t even really a question. It’s just the first time (~2018) we’ve had real-time rendering for both techniques. 

 

Just consider for a moment that it would take large, render farms, which would be dense racks full of CPUs / GPUs, a considerable amount of time and effort to produce millions of static frames that are stitched together for movies at 24fps. 
 

Now, whilst we don’t have that level of accuracy (upscaled resolution, noise, limited number of bounces etc.) compared to films, we are pretty close to getting that effect in real-time.

 

The reality is that the scene geometry needs to be pretty simple with current hardware at modern resolutions. Otherwise the hardware gets choked. No surprise to anyone here

 

DLSS and all these upscalers in my mind, are simply the short-to-mid term solutions to help developers keep this technology viable and usable whilst developers learn how to leverage the new tools in a rendering pipeline. Also, most importantly, ship products that sell to help drive the purchase of more RT / PT capable hardware.

 

Maybe there will be more advancements in upscaling to help significantly offset the computation load and, that technology will become the norm. That I don’t know. I don’t have a crystal ball but until we’re there, I wouldn’t rely on them when native remains superior and that SHOULD be the target if we’re aiming for CG Film level fidelity.

 

My honest gut is that we’re probably closer in the range of 10 years to 15 out before we meet that point in the curve. The point where modern games with modern features at modern resolutions can be rendered with full path tracing in real time but… I believe it will come.

 

I’m very happy to see some developers continue to get sponsored or maybe more objectively, continue to collaborate with Nvidia, AMD to implement this tech because it will drive the medium forward.

 

Just on the consumer side, I know it’s futile to invest so heavily into RT / PT right now. Kudos to those who can afford to buy and play with 4090s and CP2077 and I hope this tech to grows exponentially with more R&D.

 

Hard to ignore the complexity and costs of producing the latest and greatest GPU dies, at scale, whilst utilizing the latest tech.

 

Anyway, this is just a long winded post to say… I love ray tracing and path tracing, but i’ll be on the sidelines for now until it becomes viable without significant compromise.

  

...yeah, path tracing is pretty resource-intensive which is why DLSS3 + FrameGen + NVReflex are so important...I believe that all RTX4xxx can employ those techniques, not just a 4090, but it is probably better to use a 4089 or 4090 for path tracing on 4K settings. On another note, I mentioned the Unreal 5.x engine above - the demos I have seen are fantastic (as one would expect for demos), but perhaps it can also get to a form of path tracing in a more resource-efficient way; we'll see.

 

Somewhat related, I would love to see non-DX drivers such as Vulkan to adopt similar tech and features - perhaps I am 'dreaming in technicolor', but a nice Linux-based system able to run major titles natively with the same eye candy as DX would be, well, a dream... 

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31 minutes ago, J7SC_Orion said:

  

...yeah, path tracing is pretty resource-intensive which is why DLSS3 + FrameGen + NVReflex are so important...I believe that all RTX4xxx can employ those techniques, not just a 4090, but it is probably better to use a 4089 or 4090 for path tracing on 4K settings. On another note, I mentioned the Unreal 5.x engine above - the demos I have seen are fantastic (as one would expect for demos), but perhaps it can also get to a form of path tracing in a more resource-efficient way; we'll see.

 

Somewhat related, I would love to see non-DX drivers such as Vulkan to adopt similar tech and features - perhaps I am 'dreaming in technicolor', but a nice Linux-based system able to run major titles natively with the same eye candy as DX would be, well, a dream... 

 

You should download Unreal Engine 5 and give it a test. Even if you're unfamiliar with modeling or creating scenes, there are the Megascans (Quixel) library and you can play with the tools. It's all free. 

 

I'm sure there are full scenes beyond just the Matrix demo which you can download and play with too. I

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Just in case anyone here needs a little explanation on the difference between ray tracing and path tracing:

 

Ray Tracing traces light from the camera out, and for however many bounces it's programmed to do. Anything not in view of the camera or not touched by light bounces is not considered in the rendering. 

 

Path Tracing traces light from light sources, and for however many bounces it's programmed to do. 

 

This is why RT still has missing info vs PT. 

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...this discussion of a mod could be useful for RTX2K, 3K and RDNA2 with CP2077 Overdrive enabled 😀 @bonami2and @Sir Beregond might les us know how well it works.

 

 

...and also Digital Foundry's intro regarding CP2077 path tracing from last week which I had posted then in another forum/thread. 

 

 

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minimul dibberence

 

image.thumb.png.854270dc16be5be4e47845a70600b3f4.png

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Some more (RTX 4090) path-tracing, with some emphasis on light reflections. Originals are in 4K Ultra setting with DLSS 3 Quality / FrameGen / NVR and RTX Overdrive (= path tracing); screenshots below are the shrunk .jpg versions but they should still get enough detail across.

   

CP2077_OD_4_Screenshot(566).thumb.jpg.6d4399159bf46704979c971ccf3db406.jpg

 

CP2077_OD5_Screenshot(557).thumb.jpg.0e09416117deb84cedb8e1f0d1bc423d.jpg

 

CP2077_OD6_Screenshot(574).thumb.jpg.0bdf0790f5b9feea37986700d347989b.jpg

 

CP2077_OD7_Screenshot(596).thumb.jpg.391428b6587c0eff2d6ff2b13b361e9a.jpg

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AMD performance still isn't great, but with the mod I can get decent results: 

 

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9 hours ago, UltraMega said:

AMD performance still isn't great, but with the mod I can get decent results: 

 

Seem to run ways better than on my 6800xt 😀

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On 18/04/2023 at 03:18, bonami2 said:

Seem to run ways better than on my 6800xt 😀

 

Is that a similar / same mod described above > here . ...haven't bothered with the 6900XT work system yet since the other one runs w/ the 4090...still might try it for the 6900XT when I have more time 🙂  

 

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3 minutes ago, J7SC_Orion said:

 

Is that a similar / same mod described above > here . ...haven't bothered with the 6900XT work system yet since the other one runs w/ the 4090...still might try it for the 6900XT when I have more time 🙂  

 

Yes. 

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CPU: 5800x
MOTHERBOARD: ASUS TUF Gaming B550-Plus
RAM: XMP 3600mhz CL16
GPU: 7900XT
SOUNDCARD: Sound Blaster Z 5.1 home theater
MONITOR: 4K 65 inch TV
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...some more feedback and examples from the mod, by GN (time-stamped)

 

 

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CPU: CPU: ><.......7950X3D - Aorus X670E Master - 48GB DDR5 7200 (8000) TridentZ SK Hynix - Giga-G-OC/Galax RTX 4090 670W - LG 48 OLED - 4TB NVMEs >< .......5950X - Asus CH 8 Dark Hero - 32GB CL13 DDR4 4000 - AMD R 6900XT 500W - Philips BDM40 4K VA - 2TB NVME & 3TB SSDs >> - <<.......4.4 TR 2950X - MSI X399 Creation - 32 GB CL 14 3866 - Asus RTX 3090 Strix OC/KPin 520W and 2x RTX 2080 Ti Gigabyte XTR WF WB 380W - LG 55 IPS HDR - 1TB NVME & 4TB SSDs
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...interesting path tracing examples 

 

 

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CPU: CPU: ><.......7950X3D - Aorus X670E Master - 48GB DDR5 7200 (8000) TridentZ SK Hynix - Giga-G-OC/Galax RTX 4090 670W - LG 48 OLED - 4TB NVMEs >< .......5950X - Asus CH 8 Dark Hero - 32GB CL13 DDR4 4000 - AMD R 6900XT 500W - Philips BDM40 4K VA - 2TB NVME & 3TB SSDs >> - <<.......4.4 TR 2950X - MSI X399 Creation - 32 GB CL 14 3866 - Asus RTX 3090 Strix OC/KPin 520W and 2x RTX 2080 Ti Gigabyte XTR WF WB 380W - LG 55 IPS HDR - 1TB NVME & 4TB SSDs
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...and this vid with additional Unreal Engine 5.x info (including path tracing) was just published 

  

 

Edited by J7SC_Orion

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CPU: CPU: ><.......7950X3D - Aorus X670E Master - 48GB DDR5 7200 (8000) TridentZ SK Hynix - Giga-G-OC/Galax RTX 4090 670W - LG 48 OLED - 4TB NVMEs >< .......5950X - Asus CH 8 Dark Hero - 32GB CL13 DDR4 4000 - AMD R 6900XT 500W - Philips BDM40 4K VA - 2TB NVME & 3TB SSDs >> - <<.......4.4 TR 2950X - MSI X399 Creation - 32 GB CL 14 3866 - Asus RTX 3090 Strix OC/KPin 520W and 2x RTX 2080 Ti Gigabyte XTR WF WB 380W - LG 55 IPS HDR - 1TB NVME & 4TB SSDs
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  • 2 weeks later...

Two near-identical scenes from Cyberpunk 2077; first one with path tracing, second one without (otherwise same 4K DLSS3 Quality / FrameGen / NVR / settings). Original 4K .png files...best to view full size

  

Screenshot(698).thumb.png.552553d07a63547b469c53eb83bda899.png

 

Screenshot(699).thumb.png.b22e4b88da359c126621f017b54bb00e.png

 

 

 

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CPU: CPU: ><.......7950X3D - Aorus X670E Master - 48GB DDR5 7200 (8000) TridentZ SK Hynix - Giga-G-OC/Galax RTX 4090 670W - LG 48 OLED - 4TB NVMEs >< .......5950X - Asus CH 8 Dark Hero - 32GB CL13 DDR4 4000 - AMD R 6900XT 500W - Philips BDM40 4K VA - 2TB NVME & 3TB SSDs >> - <<.......4.4 TR 2950X - MSI X399 Creation - 32 GB CL 14 3866 - Asus RTX 3090 Strix OC/KPin 520W and 2x RTX 2080 Ti Gigabyte XTR WF WB 380W - LG 55 IPS HDR - 1TB NVME & 4TB SSDs
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