Epic Games Is Officially Suing Both Google & Apple

[schuck6566]

WHY EPIC Broke from the APP Stores! Every store,sales are generating money. Here's some figures from a different story to give an idea : For one-time purchases Apple charges a 30% fee.In the first year of a subscription, Apple takes a 30% cut of your revenue, so you receive 70% of the subscription price at each billing cycle, monthly or annual, minus applicable taxes.After a year of service, your revenue share increases to 85% of the subscription price, minus applicable taxes, so Apple takes 15% of your revenue. So,if you buy something in an app for $10.00 you just paid apple $3.00, or if you subscribe to say Spotify for $1.99 a month you're paying them .60 cents every month for the first year.But don't worry,if you keep the subscription it'll drop to where U R only paying them .30 cents a month.

The exact same terms work on the Google play store. And people wonder where all the money Apple and Google are making comes from? (source of fee information https://www.mobiloud.com/help/knowledge-base/what-are-apple-and-googles-fees-and-revenue-share-percentage-on-in-app-purchases-and-subscriptions/ )

Epic Games Is Officially Suing Both Google & Apple

[schuck6566]

Sorry about this being kinda confusing.

[486]

IIRC steam is taking 30% as well.. guess that's just the "standard" fare these days.

 

I can understand a little finders fee and fee for hosting the app but 30% does seem ludicrous to me. New age extortion.. if you want your business on our block, you gotta pay up big!

 

Looks like people are willing to pay though, so....

[Laithan]

Digital Extortion indeed... sadly where it really originates is from the agreements accepted within the terms and conditions set by digital storefronts. They surely had the lawyers comb over ever word to ensure that there is no possible way to bypass the digital storefront's "cut". I really don't see how EPIC can win if they accepted these terms and conditions up front (regardless if they are fair, right or wrong). I commend them for fighting this because let's be honest, 30% is waaay too much... Digital distribution should earn a slice and be very profitable.. what they do is allow the download...manage some keys and certainly provide discovery of the software. IMO 30% (x%) is just not proportional since they were not responsible for ANY development costs at all...

 

[schuck6566]

Digital Extortion indeed... sadly where it really originates is from the agreements accepted within the terms and conditions set by digital storefronts. They surely had the lawyers comb over ever word to ensure that there is no possible way to bypass the digital storefront's "cut". I really don't see how EPIC can win if they accepted these terms and conditions up front (regardless if they are fair, right or wrong). I commend them for fighting this because let's be honest, 30% is waaay too much... Digital distribution should earn a slice and be very profitable.. what they do is allow the download...manage some keys and certainly provide discovery of the software. IMO 30% (x%) is just not proportional since they were not responsible for ANY development costs at all...

 

My understanding is they're going after them under the anti-trust laws.Especially saying apple has a monopoly on their phones & pads getting anything put on them. https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/14/2...games-payments

"“We’re fighting for open platforms and policy changes equally benefiting all developers,” says Epic Games CEO Tim Sweeney. “And it’ll be a hell of a fight!” It’s a fight that Epic has prepared for, and its lawsuit specifically alleges that Apple has a monopoly in the form of the iPhone, its iOS ecosystem, and the App Store that binds them all together.

Epic has enlisted the counsel of Cravath, Swaine & Moore, which includes Christine Varney, a former US assistant attorney general of the antitrust division for the Obama administration. Varney also served as the Federal Trade commissioner for the Clinton administration. Katherine Forrest, a partner at Cravath, is also part of Epic’s lawsuit. Forrest is a former judge and antitrust litigator, and the Cravath law firm was also part of Qualcomm’s lawsuit against Apple.""

Edit: Apple originally launched the App Store as a way to add value to the iPhone and sell more of its handsets. “It costs money to run it,” explained Steve Jobs in a Wall Street Journal interview at the launch of the App Store in 2008. “Those free apps cost money to store and to deliver wirelessly. The paid apps cost money, too. They have to pay for some of the free apps. We don’t expect this to be a big profit generator. We expect it to add value to the iPhone. We’ll sell more iPhones because of it.” Apple’s App Store is now a massive $519 billion developer ecosystem. It’s also a key part of Apple’s growing services business, which is the second biggest revenue driver for the company, behind the iPhone. FYI,the 30% figure hasn't changed in over 10 years,I wonder if it's STILL not a big enough "profit generator".

Edited August 15, 2020 by schuck6566

[schuck6566]

IIRC steam is taking 30% as well.. guess that's just the "standard" fare these days.

 

I can understand a little finders fee and fee for hosting the app but 30% does seem ludicrous to me. New age extortion.. if you want your business on our block, you gotta pay up big!

 

Looks like people are willing to pay though, so....

 

I've bought games on steam & they may be charging the 30%, BUT they ALSO allow you to get things direct from the developer and just enter the code on steam to add it to your game.Not every monetary transaction between you and a developer has to occur with steam as a middle man with your bank. I've added many an item to dying light just by adding the code on steam.I've also purchased games from the developer's site & installed it on steam with the code because it was on sale on that site.

[schuck6566]

Further info: "Apple responded by removing Fortnite from the App Store, saying that the new payment feature violated the terms of their agreement. "Today, Epic Games took the unfortunate step of violating the App Store guidelines that are applied equally to every developer and designed to keep the store safe for our users. As a result, their Fortnite app has been removed from the store," an Apple spokesperson said. " The PROBLEM with THAT comment is that Apple worked a deal with Amazon on the Prime Video App and ALSO allows customers to pay their NETFLIX subscription ONLINE @ Netflix.com where the 30% doesn't get taken out. (They don't TELL the Netflix users that,but they ARE able to do it!)I believe Netflix had threatened to pull the app themselves or it wasn't available on the apple devices until that change in billing options became available. Here's the FREE netflix app on the app store Here's the information about it on the store.In app purchases = subscription rates. NOTE the link for the developers website right below the purchase rates? It takes you to netflix. com where U can sign up THERE with your billing info.After signing up,just log into the apple app with your id and apple has been bypassed for billing. Epic is saying THEY and all other developers should have the same right.

 

[Laithan]

This is going to be real interesting for sure!

 

Grab some popcorn folks

:eat_popcom:

[schuck6566]

This is going to be real interesting for sure!

 

Grab some popcorn folks

:eat_popcom:

 

:eat_popcom: :cheers:

[ENTERPRISE]

The fees are just insane...greed at its worst.

[Andrew]

The fees are just insane...greed at its worst.

 

They're industry standard. Steam, Sony and Microsoft (at least on Xbox, not sure about Windows Store) all charge 30%. I do agree it's way too high, I think it should be 10% absolute max, but I don't know why Epic aren't going after Sony and Microsoft as well.

[schuck6566]

 

They're industry standard. Steam, Sony and Microsoft (at least on Xbox, not sure about Windows Store) all charge 30%. I do agree it's way too high, I think it should be 10% absolute max, but I don't know why Epic aren't going after Sony and Microsoft as well.

 

https://9to5mac.com/2019/03/06/micro...revenue-share/ " First and foremost, Microsoft says that in order for developers to lock-in the full 95 percent, the user must have downloaded the app through a direct URL. If the user downloads the app via something like a Microsoft Store search or a Microsoft Store Collection, the developer gets 85 percent and Microsoft gets 15 percent." ALSO U can purchase an xbox game from the creators site (ubisoft 4 example)and enter the code into the xbox to download it without the 30% fee. Microsoft isn't keeping companies like Epic,steam,or even the playstore from being on and installing on their OS without charging a fee. If U want something on a mobile apple device,U pretty much HAVE to go through the store which means they get a fee.

Edited August 17, 2020 by schuck6566

[ENTERPRISE]

The only time it will change is if game devs say no to the platforms and boycott them into reducing the fee's. The issue is that Game devs also shoot themselves in the foot by doing so...it is a fine line.

[schuck6566]

The only time it will change is if game devs say no to the platforms and boycott them into reducing the fee's. The issue is that Game devs also shoot themselves in the foot by doing so...it is a fine line.

 

Apple retaliates and strikes 3rd party developers in the process. They're going to be banning all of Epic's developers accounts which includes their Unreal Engine so other people who've used Unreal for THEIR games on Apple will either have to go with the engine being not updated,or have to redo the game in a new engine. Epic is going for a restraining order. https://gizmodo.com/apple-attempts-to-take-its-toys-away-and-effectively-ba-1844753245

[Andrew]

Update from Apple:

 

 

 

Apple retaliates and strikes 3rd party developers in the process. They're going to be banning all of Epic's developers accounts which includes their Unreal Engine so other people who've used Unreal for THEIR games on Apple will either have to go with the engine being not updated,or have to redo the game in a new engine. Epic is going for a restraining order. https://gizmodo.com/apple-attempts-t...-ba-1844753245

 

That's just standard procedures when a lawsuit is happening. I think regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit, Apple will bring their developer tools back to iOS and macOS. Unless it's a scam app, Apple don't ban developers entirely.

[schuck6566]

Update from Apple:

 

 

 

 

That's just standard procedures when a lawsuit is happening. I think regardless of the outcome of the lawsuit, Apple will bring their developer tools back to iOS and macOS. Unless it's a scam app, Apple don't ban developers entirely.

 

https://venturebeat.com/2020/08/18/apples-response-to-epic-threatens-the-future-of-vr-ar-tv-and-films/ "Challenge Apple on iOS payments and it will explicitly threaten to delete your company from not just iOS devices, but also Macs, iPads, Apple TVs, and Apple Watches. That’s not just a bad look for Apple, given that Tim Cook testified under oath to Congress last month that “we do not retaliate or bully people; it’s strongly against our company culture.” The letter is also strong evidence of antitrust practices: Follow all the rules in the walled garden, or we’ll prevent you and everything you make from being used both inside and outside the garden."

 

:eat_popcom:

 

[Laithan]

They are brave (in a scarcastic way) that's for sure. These kind of bully tactics make me want to walk the other way as I don't wish to support companies that do this. I personally wouldn't mind AT ALL if Apple went by the way of the Dodo bird, Packard Bell and New Coke.... I personally (not trying to spark debate here) have had nothing but problems with (several generations) iPhones...update after update... I'm really losing sight of what makes being an Apple customer attractive these days anyway. Today, it certainly isn't the "refined" experience they originally became famous for by any stretch. The prices for anything (products, support, software) can be outrageous and insulting.. They go as far as to develop special methods to prevent user repair of some products (simple things like replacing a battery, even when using authentic replacement parts). I believe they filed lawsuits against companies attempting to repair Apple products. I personally cannot justify spending big $ for big headaches and then to learn that I'm indirectly supporting these strongarm business tactics by being a customer.. In restrospect, things change...For example the palm pilot was at one point, unstoppable... biggest, hottest device.. Palm became huge for the time and sold many Palm Pilots...but as with anything else, when customers simply have a better choice who can blame them for considering it?

[schuck6566]

lol, In another forum,I keep hearing the argument that apple's app store shouldn't be regulated on the grounds that "If U don't like the terms,U can make your own phone & store..."  Well, here's HUAWEI's answer to that notion....  They're still adding to the store,but it's supposedly already larger than amazons and now has a map app(Tom Tom Go) they're working on their on maps app. Looking @ THEIR rates,I think regulating the app stores would be a GOOD thing! Edit: Make sure to look @ the In App purchase rates in the screen shot!

Edited September 7, 2020 by schuck6566

[schuck6566]

And NOW Apple is suing back for damages because “Epic’s flagrant disregard for its contractual commitments and other misconduct has caused significant harm to Apple,” the filing reads. “Left unchecked, Epic’s conduct threatens the very existence of the iOS ecosystem and its tremendous value to consumers.”   https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/8/21427779/apple-epic-games-breach-of-contract-lawsuit-fortnite-app-store?fbclid=IwAR0KjmJzSvkndT76MI9uZFWs-Kt1SkzqEvQfJ9E-OJKoBQarwkDnbGpNmOk

[Andrew]

Tim Sweeney is just acting like a child who didn't get his toys. What he could have done to avoid all of this is just increase the price of Vbucks on iOS exclusively by 30% and put out a tweet (both Epic Store account and Fortnite account) as well as emails explaining why they've done it and how customers could get around paying extra by just buying Vbucks on PC instead. This would have gone around the Apple ToS where Apple have no control.

I do agree with Tim Sweeneys message with this, however the way he's dealing with it, as well as using the analogies on his personal twitter account of "in the real world if the price of something is too much in one store, you could just go across the street and get it from another store for cheaper, you can't do that on iOS" while at the same time buying exclusives for EGS on PC from third party developers so you can't buy those games from the "cheaper alternatives" as he put it. In this case I'm talking about Hitman 3 which on PC, is only going to be available on EGS with no release date for Steam/GOG.

This is the reason why I want to see Epic lose this court case. If they weren't doing this, I'd be all for them winning it.

[schuck6566]

3 hours ago, Andrew said:

Tim Sweeney is just acting like a child who didn't get his toys. What he could have done to avoid all of this is just increase the price of Vbucks on iOS exclusively by 30% and put out a tweet (both Epic Store account and Fortnite account) as well as emails explaining why they've done it and how customers could get around paying extra by just buying Vbucks on PC instead. This would have gone around the Apple ToS where Apple have no control.

I do agree with Tim Sweeneys message with this, however the way he's dealing with it, as well as using the analogies on his personal twitter account of "in the real world if the price of something is too much in one store, you could just go across the street and get it from another store for cheaper, you can't do that on iOS" while at the same time buying exclusives for EGS on PC from third party developers so you can't buy those games from the "cheaper alternatives" as he put it. In this case I'm talking about Hitman 3 which on PC, is only going to be available on EGS with no release date for Steam/GOG.

This is the reason why I want to see Epic lose this court case. If they weren't doing this, I'd be all for them winning it.

Previous "exclusives" of epics have later launched on other systems in many cases. As an example here are some with the terms of the exclusivity from back in 2019.

• Borderlands 3- September 13th( six-month Epic exclusive)
• Beyond Two Souls(one-year Epic exclusive)
• Close to the Sun
• Control (now available on Steam*)
• Detroit: Become Human(one-year Epic exclusive)
• Heavy Rain(one-year Epic exclusive)
• Outer Worlds (Available on Steam 1 year after exclusive launch)

He's mostly paying for limited exclusives,it seems you can still wait and then go across the street to steam,gog, OR in the case of The Division 2 "exclusive" U can STILL buy the ubi exclusives on uplay. It depends on how the developer cuts the deal.

[Andrew]

1 hour ago, schuck6566 said:

Previous "exclusives" of epics have later launched on other systems in many cases. As an example here are some with the terms of the exclusivity from back in 2019.

• Borderlands 3- September 13th( six-month Epic exclusive)
• Beyond Two Souls(one-year Epic exclusive)
• Close to the Sun
• Control (now available on Steam*)
• Detroit: Become Human(one-year Epic exclusive)
• Heavy Rain(one-year Epic exclusive)
• Outer Worlds (Available on Steam 1 year after exclusive launch)

He's mostly paying for limited exclusives,it seems you can still wait and then go across the street to steam,gog, OR in the case of The Division 2 "exclusive" U can STILL buy the ubi exclusives on uplay. It depends on how the developer cuts the deal.

There's still hypocrisy there. The argument of "you can just buy it a year later" doesn't really work for most people because by then, they've lost interest in those games and they end up never buying it. I know that's going to happen with me because I was interested in Heavy Rain and Outer Worlds and now Hitman 3. I never bought Heavy Rain or Outer Worlds, and I'll likely end up not buying Hitman 3.

[schuck6566]

Again,this falls on the individual developers. They can always turn down the offer of more money from epic for being exclusive and say "No,I'm going to accept less and simply be on other stores also because I feel that my customers are more interested in that." You can only be upset if he's buying rights to 3rd party games for his store to have sole permanent distro of. If you're gonna be upset over the limited exclusive deals, you need to be upset with the developers who are accepting the deals. ROTFL, If you're gonna get upset about exclusives not being available on Steam, Where was the outrage when Destiny 2 was still on Battle.net??? "Bungie announced on Thursday that Destiny 2 will be available on Steam on Sept. 17,2019 and “current PC players will be able to bring all of their progress and purchases with them, including their Guardians, their vaults, and all of their progress – at no cost.” " Or maybe some of the games on Origin that aren't on Steam??  You can't pick and choose who you're gonna be mad @ for keeping your game from you.@ least his way so far it eventually does become available in other stores.Apples way,there IS no other store.   P.S. In case you're not a Destiny 2 player, Bungie left battle.net which is why it suddenly became available on Steam.It pissed people off because they made the base game free and went to a multi season pay to upgrade format.  Forgive my rambling.

[Andrew]

5 minutes ago, schuck6566 said:

Again,this falls on the individual developers. They can always turn down the offer of more money from epic for being exclusive and say "No,I'm going to accept less and simply be on other stores also because I feel that my customers are more interested in that." You can only be upset if he's buying rights to 3rd party games for his store to have sole permanent distro of. If you're gonna be upset over the limited exclusive deals, you need to be upset with the developers who are accepting the deals. ROTFL, If you're gonna get upset about exclusives not being available on Steam, Where was the outrage when Destiny 2 was still on Battle.net??? "Bungie announced on Thursday that Destiny 2 will be available on Steam on Sept. 17,2019 and “current PC players will be able to bring all of their progress and purchases with them, including their Guardians, their vaults, and all of their progress – at no cost.” " Or maybe some of the games on Origin that aren't on Steam??  You can't pick and choose who you're gonna be mad @ for keeping your game from you.@ least his way so far it eventually does become available in other stores.Apples way,there IS no other store.   P.S. In case you're not a Destiny 2 player, Bungie left battle.net which is why it suddenly became available on Steam.It pissed people off because they made the base game free and went to a multi season pay to upgrade format.  Forgive my rambling.

Oh yeah, I know it's on developers who do that as well, but those developers aren't spouting off about "MORE CHOICE IS BETTER!"

As far as first party games go, I'm fine with those being exclusively on the one platform. This does also include developers who decide to use Steam exclusively. They chose to only sell their game on that platform, Valve didn't pay them to do so.

[schuck6566]

And the fight continues...  https://techcrunch.com/2021/02/17/epic-games-takes-its-apple-app-store-fight-to-europe/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cueW91dHViZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALxNhl8hzkyzAYedvxs4JZZc4KUA9lnYTgrnGrZ23GlYt09OgnQ7GuYVdQ4l2apR7hrOavRlC4ocOf-s6spFMkwvGF2cjbPx8-ymTOFmDxSlzyHYc5MjAuWIlQvqnHuH7ccJSK2CAtxgGbDnlWIQtjnMLtmIg1Y2avADmNMrV5Wi