guru3d GPU sales at lowest point in a decade

[UltraMega]

Quote

The gaming industry is experiencing the same economic downturn as the rest of the globe, which makes it easy to understand why the mining sector is almost dead and cryptocurrency prices are at an all-time low. This also impacts brand name makers of personal computers. Companies have cut their component purchases since demand for brand-new personal computers has dropped and no back-to-school update is anticipated for the first time in many years.

 

Not to mention the very tempting prices on the secondary market for graphics cards used for mining. This resulted in a decline of 10.5% in GPU shipments, to 75.5 million units, across both discrete and integrated GPUs, this quarter. As calculated by Jon Paddie Research, this indicates a decrease of 25.1% compared to the corresponding period in 2021.

 

In addition, JPR reports that desktop GPU shipments are down 15.43%, while laptop GPU shipments are down 30%; this is the largest reduction in shipments since the 2009 recession. Intel's processors accounted for 72% of the company's revenue in the quarter, confirming the company's continued market dominance. Furthermore, the company's share of GPU shipments climbed to 4.7%. A decrease in shipments contributed to stock price drops for both NVIDIA (16%) and AMD (12%) within the same time period.

 

The slowdowns have been caused by a number of factors, including the "cryptocurrency mining stoppage," zero tolerance measures in China (as a result of Covid), US sanctions, and the economic position of customers.

 

 

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/sales-of-graphics-cards-hit-lowest-sales-since-a-decade.html

 

The used market is looking better all the time for gpus lately. 

[ENTERPRISE]

Considering the overall penny pinching people are doing more of, this comes as no surprise. That and the GPU space, especially new is still crazy pricing. 

[bonami2]

Well for some reason we are not seeing 3000 serie gpu show up in large quantity on the used market well i don't feel like there alot. Is it possible miner are holding their gpu? The market should crash ways harder than this i would think.

[J7SC_Orion]

....apart from mining, there's another big reason though for the current slowdown: The serious upgrading folks did re. their home systems and especially laptops during the peak of the pandemic - that just pulled some then-future demand ahead. Adding to that the collapse of mining, slower economic growth (implies more uncertainty) and higher general inflation eating into discretionary spending budgets, I am actually surprised that the declines are not more pronounced then reported. Another factor worth considering is the well-publicized leaks for six months plus re. both NVidia's and AMD's new GPU generations for the period the referenced sales reports looked at, which did not include RTX4K.

 

...in any case, it seems that 4090s are mostly sold out (in this region anyways) while 4080s linger on the shelves...so far, about 130,000 4090s have been sold (don't know about the later-released 4080s, but I saw a lot of them on the shelves of a major store on the weekend, unlike a single 4090). As an owner of a 4090, I actually also kept my 3090 (I'm using GPUs for both work and play). 4090s make a heck of a lot more sense to me than 4080s on performance per dollar, at least at the initial intro price for 4090s (changing now) and the MSRP of the 4080s. It will be telling how well AMD's new 7900 XT/X will sell in their first two weeks on the market, and whether 4080s get discounted by NVidia and AMD does some price adjustments of their own for the 7900 series.

 

 

[Sir Beregond]

12 hours ago, bonami2 said:

Well for some reason we are not seeing 3000 serie gpu show up in large quantity on the used market well i don't feel like there alot. Is it possible miner are holding their gpu? The market should crash ways harder than this i would think.

I don't know. I am seeing new stock of 3080, 3080 Ti, 3090, 3090 Ti dry up locally at Micro Center, same when looking online at places like Newegg. 

 

As for the used market, I feel the big mining sell off already happened. Anything there now is anyone else or miners who waited too long.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Sir Beregond

[Andrew]

I wonder if this has anything to do with mid-range GPUs costing close to $1000 these days whereas 10 years ago they were $200, $350 max which is $260-$455 adjusting for inflation and high end GPUs going from $600-$700 which is $780-$910 adjusting for inflation to over $3000.

[pio]

7 minutes ago, Andrew said:

I wonder if this has anything to do with mid-range GPUs costing close to $1000 these days whereas 10 years ago they were $200, $350 max which is $260-$455 adjusting for inflation and high end GPUs going from $600-$700 which is $780-$910 adjusting for inflation to over $3000.

Oh no, that couldn't possibly be what it is......

 

I won't buy another $1000+ card, I was talking to Sir B about this on Discord the other day.  With how disappointed I am with my 6900XT (for the price), yeah that's not happening again.  I'll wait till next gen and buy the previous generation used for half price.

[Sir Beregond]

44 minutes ago, Andrew said:

I wonder if this has anything to do with mid-range GPUs costing close to $1000 these days whereas 10 years ago they were $200, $350 max which is $260-$455 adjusting for inflation and high end GPUs going from $600-$700 which is $780-$910 adjusting for inflation to over $3000.

 

34 minutes ago, pioneerisloud said:

Oh no, that couldn't possibly be what it is......

 

I won't buy another $1000+ card, I was talking to Sir B about this on Discord the other day.  With how disappointed I am with my 6900XT (for the price), yeah that's not happening again.  I'll wait till next gen and buy the previous generation used for half price.

Yep, done with that game. I'll buy whatever does 4k120 at $700 max in a few years. $1600 4090 is a joke (performance is good, price is not). I say that because all a 4090 is, is a rebrand of what used to be the cheaper x80 Ti which is a rebrand of what used to be the cheaper x80 (back in Fermi days), which was the top end card/chip. But hey its got a new number so we can charge whatever apparently.

 

And so the consumer gets obfuscated. "But it's only $100 more than the 3090 was!". Yeah and the 3090 was a 2080 Ti replacement with a $300 increase and the 2080 Ti was a $500 increase over the 1080 Ti? Anyone notice a trend here?

 

They then tried to say the 90's were "Titans", but last I checked the Titan RTX (last actual Titan) was $2500. You ever know Nvidia to lower prices? Yeah I thought not. 90's were 80 Ti replacements with a price increase, plain and simple, but the market got suckered by the new branding.

Edited November 29, 2022 by Sir Beregond

[UltraMega]

18 hours ago, bonami2 said:

Well for some reason we are not seeing 3000 serie gpu show up in large quantity on the used market well i don't feel like there alot. Is it possible miner are holding their gpu? The market should crash ways harder than this i would think.

Since I've actually been buying used GPUs lately, I have a little insight into this. 

 

For one, I don't think mining has become unprofitable for people who already have a mining setup, but not worth starting a new setup anymore, so established miners are probably still using their cards for mining. 

 

Two, the GPU crash in the used market probably hasn't been fully realized yet because there are not a lot of options for people to upgrade to right now, pretty much just the 4090. Once more cards come out, used prices will drop a lot more I'm sure, but we are still waiting for GPUs to replace what people already have. 

 

Three, I've noticed there is a pretty heavy lag between where prices should be and where seller think they are in the used market that is pretty obvious when prices change this fast. There are still tons of people trying to sell their used cards for MSRP or even higher, and they just don't sell. I think the lag time can be about 2 months for the majority of sellers. You can really tell the difference between a seller who treats ebay like a business opportunity and ones who just want to get something for their used GPU. The ones sold by the latter tend to go quick, so you won't see their listing up for long.

The best way to actually get a good price right now is to find listings that have been sitting around for a while that accept offers, or in an auction. Buy it now prices are usually not grounded in reality. 

 

I think right now the used market is about how it should have been a year ago if GPU prices had been more typical over the last 2-3 years. We're still behind, and still waiting for the big drop. Nvidia is trying to lessen the drop by stretching it out to a more-shallow curve, but once AMD gets new GPUS out, Nvidia won't be able to control the market so much. Right now we are in the phase where Nvidia is keeping prices high by trying not to compete directly with their own overstock and the market enthusiasm being so low reflects what a crappy situation we are in, but when that ends things may change quickly and drastically. Maybe Nvidia will start trying to get DLSS3 and unfeasible RT effects even more games to try to stave off competition since they seem to have become addicted to selling GPUs at highly inflated costs and they may be scrambling on a near constant basis now to manipulate the market to favor them in more and more ways that have less to do with direct competition. It seems like investors are starting to lose faith in Nvidia's ability to strong arm the market for much longer though, but I probably still wouldn't bet against Nvidia just yet, even though I'd like to. 

 

 

In the real world, I've only been buying used 3070s because that is where the price/ performance makes the most sense in the used market right now and you can get one for $375 after tax and shipping. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by UltraMega

[pio]

I dunno about your mining comment to be honest.  I was making well over $10 / day on just a couple RX 580's and my 6900XT.  Now?  $0.30 per day.  I'm using well over $1 / day in power.  I doubt 3090's etc are doing a whole heck of a lot better.  I stopped because of this too btw.

Edited November 30, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[UltraMega]

8 minutes ago, pioneerisloud said:

I dunno about your mining comment to be honest.  I was making well over $10 / day on just a couple RX 580's and my 6900XT.  Now?  $0.30 per day.  I'm using well over $1 / day in power.  I doubt 3090's etc are doing a whole heck of a lot better.  I stopped because of this too btw.

Interesting, you probably know more about it than I do. I just assumed if you. Already have the setup, theres probably still some value but I'm not familiar with mining at all. 

[J7SC_Orion]

7 hours ago, Sir Beregond said:

 

Yep, done with that game. I'll buy whatever does 4k120 at $700 max in a few years. $1600 4090 is a joke (performance is good, price is not). I say that because all a 4090 is, is a rebrand of what used to be the cheaper x80 Ti which is a rebrand of what used to be the cheaper x80 (back in Fermi days), which was the top end card/chip. But hey its got a new number so we can charge whatever apparently.

 

And so the consumer gets obfuscated. "But it's only $100 more than the 3090 was!". Yeah and the 3090 was a 2080 Ti replacement with a $300 increase and the 2080 Ti was a $500 increase over the 1080 Ti? Anyone notice a trend here?

 

They then tried to say the 90's were "Titans", but last I checked the Titan RTX (last actual Titan) was $2500. You ever know Nvidia to lower prices? Yeah I thought not. 90's were 80 Ti replacements with a price increase, plain and simple, but the market got suckered by the new branding.

  

3 hours ago, UltraMega said:

Since I've actually been buying used GPUs lately, I have a little insight into this. 

 

For one, I don't think mining has become unprofitable for people who already have a mining setup, but not worth starting a new setup anymore, so established miners are probably still using their cards for mining. 

 

Two, the GPU crash in the used market probably hasn't been fully realized yet because there are not a lot of options for people to upgrade to right now, pretty much just the 4090. Once more cards come out, used prices will drop a lot more I'm sure, but we are still waiting for GPUs to replace what people already have. 

 

Three, I've noticed there is a pretty heavy lag between where prices should be and where seller think they are in the used market that is pretty obvious when prices change this fast. There are still tons of people trying to sell their used cards for MSRP or even higher, and they just don't sell. I think the lag time can be about 2 months for the majority of sellers. You can really tell the difference between a seller who treats ebay like a business opportunity and ones who just want to get something for their used GPU. The ones sold by the latter tend to go quick, so you won't see their listing up for long.

The best way to actually get a good price right now is to find listings that have been sitting around for a while that accept offers, or in an auction. Buy it now prices are usually not grounded in reality. 

 

I think right now the used market is about how it should have been a year ago if GPU prices had been more typical over the last 2-3 years. We're still behind, and still waiting for the big drop. Nvidia is trying to lessen the drop by stretching it out to a more-shallow curve, but once AMD gets new GPUS out, Nvidia won't be able to control the market so much. Right now we are in the phase where Nvidia is keeping prices high by trying not to compete directly with their own overstock and the market enthusiasm being so low reflects what a crappy situation we are in, but when that ends things may change quickly and drastically. Maybe Nvidia will start trying to get DLSS3 and unfeasible RT effects even more games to try to stave off competition since they seem to have become addicted to selling GPUs at highly inflated costs and they may be scrambling on a near constant basis now to manipulate the market to favor them in more and more ways that have less to do with direct competition. It seems like investors are starting to lose faith in Nvidia's ability to strong arm the market for much longer though, but I probably still wouldn't bet against Nvidia just yet, even though I'd like to. 

 

 

In the real world, I've only been buying used 3070s because that is where the price/ performance makes the most sense in the used market right now and you can get one for $375 after tax and shipping. 

  

I certainly don't feel like defending NVidia's pricing polices, but I disagree that RTX x090s are just a rebranded RTX x080 Ti -  RTX x090s occupy a dual space as both a Halo product for private users (gamers, benchers) but are also a Titan class GPU (incl. some exclusive software enabling) for select business clients who want to build powerful workstations but don't have a need for the full-on expensive enterprise models (see the first vid below). I just checked all major chains in Canada and a big one in Europe again, and still no 4090s available. For a business that is in that sort of segment re. their work, time is money and they see the 4090s as a cheap but powerful alternative to much more expensive fully professional / enterprise models.

 

NVidia is also likely going to flex its software muscles re. CUDA applications (and beyond), as much as AMD and even Intel are making inroads. There is also emerging tech (second vid below, time-stamped) re. AV1 and OBS, that favour RTX4K series (and by extension the 4090s if you're in that kind of business segment).

 

Finally, turning back to the gaming side of things, DLSS3 and Frame Insertion are very real per my own experience - the gains I have seen are phenomenal and actually delayed a full CPU/RAM/Mobo update which can now wait a few months. DLSS3 and Frame Insertion, while mostly software-based, do use some exclusive RTX4K hardware to bring latencies down again.

 

 

 

[Fluxmaven]

Not surprised that sales are down. Prices are still wack. After the holidays the demand will drop even further. AMD's cards will be out by then so hopefully it encourages Nvidia to drop prices a bit.

 

[bonami2]

Miner are probably mining at a loss dreaming it get back up to sell.

Being doing that with Banano. But i don't care am folding anyways.

[Sir Beregond]

2 hours ago, J7SC_Orion said:

  

  

I certainly don't feel like defending NVidia's pricing polices, but I disagree that RTX x090s are just a rebranded RTX x080 Ti -  RTX x090s occupy a dual space as both a Halo product for private users (gamers, benchers) but are also a Titan class GPU (incl. some exclusive software enabling) for select business clients who want to build powerful workstations but don't have a need for the full-on expensive enterprise models (see the first vid below).

 

No, I don't agree with this at all. Yet 90's still have limitations on them that Titans did not in that "dual space" unless something has changed that I am not aware of. Specifically look at tensor operations and openGL stuff. When the 3090 released, it performed worse than the Titan RTX at certain workloads because of said limitations inherent to GeForce products and not to actual Titans. So unless that has changed, I am going to say no, its not a Titan.

 

And simply having 24GB of VRAM does not make it a Titan. It certainly helps with some use cases Titans had, but in and of itself did not define what a Titan was. In fact if you look at every generation since Kepler how the Titan class card and the top consumer class gaming card related to each other was different. Sometimes the Titan was the fastest card of a generation, sometimes the x80 Ti card was faster than the Titan. Sometimes the Titan had double the VRAM of the flagship gaming card, sometimes it was only marginally different. One thing was clear though, the Titan or the x80 Ti card of any given generation was the fastest. 

 

Now we have no actual Titan card, the actual x80 Ti card is a cut down card (looking at you 3080 Ti) at the same cost of the previous generation's flagship card, meanwhile the 90-card comes out and is justifying the price increase by being "Titan-ish" in its marketing. Now let's really show the switcheroo here. During the 30-series announcement, Jensen called the 3080 his new flagship and then said hey buy the way here's a bigger Ampere we're calling the 3090. Fast forward two years, does anyone think the 3080 was the flagship card of Ampere? No. Does anyone actually think the 3080 Ti was the flagship card of Ampere? No. Also then look at the 40-series announcement. The card that was spent the most time on was the 4090 when talking about the gaming portion of the announcement and in a stark contrast, the 4080's were just sort of mentioned as an after though. That tells me all I need to know and Nvidia knows they won that marketing switcheroo. No one would call the 4080 a "flagship".

 

Sorry Nvidia, I'm not buying the BS. What's the 4080 Ti going to be? A $1200-$1400 even further cut down card because even that money they can't bother to give the peasants a flagship without compromises? Hell, the 4090 is a cut down card still, at $1600. Ridiculous.

 

No. I'm sorry, you and I will just have to agree to disagree on what a 90-card is. Its a rebranding of what x80 Ti cards used to be while pretending its a "Titan" because it has 24GB of VRAM like that means something when in actuality Nvidia stagnated their VRAM increases since Pascal. Kepler doubled from Fermi. Maxwell doubled from Kepler. Pascal doubled from Maxwell. And then suddenly Turing stays same as Pascal except for the Titan RTX at 24GB, and Ampere only marginally increased from Turing at any segment that wasn't the 90-cards. Had we been following trends with Titans, an actual Titan card would probably have 48GB by now. Certainly nothing a gaming card needs. Hell 24GB can be argued about whether a gaming card needs, but it was consistent with VRAM increased trending before it stagnated.

 

Sorry, ending my rant. I get pissed off about the marketing deception and what "Titan like" actually means and why the introduction of "90" cards as a concept piss me off because how is a 3090 Ti any different to its generation than a 1080 Ti was to the Pascal generation except for the name and with it, the price.

 

I normally don't put much stock in anything coming from LTT, yet was one of the few people that called out the 3090 as not being an actual Titan.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Sir Beregond

[EHW Ai]

I'd be remiss if I didn't state that while I understand @J7SC_Orion's pov, I also accept the arguments (e.g., those provided by @Sir Beregond, etc.)  for not buying top tier cards from NVidia (especially leather jacket's NVidia). Me, I bought a 4090 for various reasons, but mostly because I could. Had B&H not made that offer to me behind the scenes, I simply would have shrugged my shoulders and life would have gone on as it has, until it didn't anymore  .

 

That said, I might eventually share my own thoughts on what ownership is like for me.  It wouldn't be a full blown review, mind you; just some honest thoughts that will likely agree to varying degrees with both sides of the coin.

 

...I do have to admit though that I cracked the seals on both the boxes for the 4090 and the one with the z790 Apex in it, just to make sure I wasn't shipped multiple pounds of lead weights (seems like not much is sacred these days; at least from where I sit, stand, and/or pound my fist ula).

Edited November 30, 2022 by iamjanco

[J7SC_Orion]

3 hours ago, iamjanco said:

I'd be remiss if I didn't state that while I understand @J7SC_Orion's pov, I also accept the arguments (e.g., those provided by @Sir Beregond, etc.)  for not buying top tier cards from NVidia (especially leather jacket's NVidia). Me, I bought a 4090 for various reasons, but mostly because I could. Had B&H not made that offer to me behind the scenes, I simply would have shrugged my shoulders and life would have gone on as it has, until it didn't anymore  .

 

That said, I might eventually share my own thoughts on what ownership is like for me.  It wouldn't be a full blown review, mind you; just some honest thoughts that will likely agree to varying degrees with both sides of the coin.

 

...I do have to admit though that I cracked the seals on both the boxes for the 4090 and the one with the z790 Apex in it, just to make sure I wasn't shipped multiple pounds of lead weights (seems like not much is sacred these days; at least from where I sit, stand, and/or pound my fist ula).

  

...you better be careful 'admitting to owning' a 4090 RTX  ... @ENTERPRISE : for some reason(s), 4090s in particular have seen the most 'unusual' responses here at ExtremeHW.net in several threads; I can't help wonder why.

 

Nobody here has to buy a NVidia product if they don't want to - just so happens that I run both AMD and NVidia concurrently.  My advice to folks is to vote with your wallet and subject to both your use-case and budget. Also, I am not a spokesperson for a particular POV on NVidia's pricing politics nor do I enjoy those, as I at least tried to underscore already at the beginning in my previous post (apparently to no avail). So I'm not a representative of a specific POV pro/con debate...

 

...instead, I am simply pointing out that the 090 series have an additional market beyond enthusiasts, gamers and benchers, and that is a given segment in the workstation realm. 24 GB of VRAM is certainly is a lot better than 16 GB for those uses (among them video production / graphics, AI to name just a few). Current top professional / enterprise cards beyond that workstation segment go up to 80 GB even before VRAM pooling, and Intel just announced the 'max' series for that market with up to 128 GB of VRAM. So the amount of VRAM is indeed a HUGE differentiator for parts of the professional market, a segment of which also happily draws on the 090 series now - not really that hard to understand, IMO. Then there is NVidia-specific productivity software...back in Turing architecture introduction, NVidia enabled it for the 2080 Ti and Titan RTX, but not other Turing cards. The workstation / pro_sumer market segment is important to vendors even if they prefer to upsell you the enterprise models. After Titan RTX, NVidia switched to the 090 series as their top model outside the enterprise ones. Perhaps one day, they'll bring the 'Titan' label back for products, who knows....but for now, professional users consider the 090s 'Titan class' for very obvious reasons.

 

Being in the software-related business for decades+, I just have to look at our own hardware configurations, or those companies in similar market segments - typically, between 2x and 4x RTX 090s for their workstations, some with more (> sample pic below). This includes some university labs as well.  YouTube has numerous workstation builds concerning the 090 series (2x, 3x, 4x and more 090s), apart from the YouTube example of workstation builds I included earlier. The fact that 4090s are also a big step up over the previous gen and a treat to run for private amusement such as gaming is a whole other chapter for future reference...suffice it to say that they're a blast in some apps give you a whole new experience compared to the previous gen...I am now seeing some apps beyond 120 fps for 4K Ultra RTX max everything - my 4K 120 OLED is getting a real workout now.

 

This brings me to the RTX4K series, and why 'we' call the 4090 a Titan class card... the $400 MSRP difference between the 4090 and 4080 isn't even worth mentioning to any business and  professional user - and apparently to many folks in the personal use space, judging by what is not available and what is left on the shelves at the time of writing:

 

RTX 4090: 

76.3 billion transistors -- 16,384 cores -- 512 TMUS -- 176 ROPS - 24 GB GDDR6X / 384 bit

 

RTX 4080:

45.9 billion transistors --  9,728 cores -- 304 TMUS -- 112 ROPS - 16 GB GDDR6X / 256 bit

 

The gap between the 4090 spec and 4080 spec is obviously big enough to drive a train through, and we'll surely see 4080 Ti and the like. While latest 'rumours' have the 4090 Ti delayed, if/when they release that, private and business users will jump on that, too. But remember, you don't have to buy anything from NVidia if you don't want to !

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by J7SC_Orion

[Sir Beregond]

 

28 minutes ago, J7SC_Orion said:

  

...you better be careful 'admitting to owning' a 4090 RTX  ... @ENTERPRISE : for some reason(s), 4090s in particular have seen the most 'unusual' responses here at ExtremeHW.net in several threads; I can't help wonder why.

 

Nobody here has to buy a NVidia product if they don't want to - just so happens that I run both AMD and NVidia concurrently.  My advice to folks is to vote with your wallet and subject to both your use-case and budget. Also, I am not a spokesperson for a particular POV on NVidia's pricing politics nor do I enjoy those, as I at least tried to underscore already at the beginning in my previous post (apparently to no avail). So I'm not a representative of a specific POV pro/con debate...

 

...instead, I am simply pointing out that the 090 series have an additional market beyond enthusiasts, gamers and benchers, and that is a given segment in the workstation realm. 24 GB of VRAM is certainly is a lot better than 16 GB for those uses (among them video production / graphics, AI to name just a few). Current top professional / enterprise cards beyond that workstation segment go up to 80 GB even before VRAM pooling, and Intel just announced the 'max' series for that market with up to 128 GB of VRAM. So the amount of VRAM is indeed a HUGE differentiator for parts of the professional market, a segment of which also happily draws on the 090 series now - not really that hard to understand, IMO. Then there is NVidia-specific productivity software...back in Turing architecture introduction, NVidia enabled it for the 2080 Ti and Titan RTX, but not other Turing cards. The workstation / pro_sumer market segment is important to vendors even if they prefer to upsell you the enterprise models. After Titan RTX, NVidia switched to the 090 series as their top model outside the enterprise ones. Perhaps one day, they'll bring the 'Titan' label back for products, who knows....but for now, professional users consider the 090s 'Titan class' for very obvious reasons.

 

Being in the software-related business for decades+, I just have to look at our own hardware configurations, or those companies in similar market segments - typically, between 2x and 4x RTX 090s for their workstations, some with more (> sample pic below). This includes some university labs as well.  YouTube has numerous workstation builds concerning the 090 series (2x, 3x, 4x and more 090s), apart from the YouTube example of workstation builds I included earlier. The fact that 4090s are also a big step up over the previous gen and a treat to run for private amusement such as gaming is a whole other chapter for future reference...suffice it to say that they're a blast in some apps give you a whole new experience compared to the previous gen...I am now seeing some apps beyond 120 fps for 4K Ultra RTX max everything - my 4K 120 OLED is getting a real workout now.

 

This brings me to the RTX4K series, and why 'we' call the 4090 a Titan class card... the $400 MSRP difference between the 4090 and 4080 isn't even worth mentioning to any business and  professional user - and apparently to many folks in the personal use space, judging by what is not available and what is left on the shelves at the time of writing:

 

RTX 4090: 

76.3 billion transistors -- 16,384 cores -- 512 TMUS -- 176 ROPS - 24 GB GDDR6X / 384 bit

 

RTX 4080:

45.9 billion transistors --  9,728 cores -- 304 TMUS -- 112 ROPS - 16 GB GDDR6X / 256 bit

 

The gap between the 4090 spec and 4080 spec is obviously big enough to drive a train through, and we'll surely see 4080 Ti and the like. While latest 'rumours' have the 4090 Ti delayed, if/when they release that, private and business users will jump on that, too. But remember, you don't have to buy anything from NVidia if you don't want to !

 

 

I think you are conflating my critiquing of the naming, branding, pricing as me calling it a bad card. It's not. The 4090 is a great card and I have said that. I mean its really the first real true 4k120 card. That's freaking amazing. And also, I have only ever congratulated folks on here who got one (you and Jan), and looked forward to seeing what you could do with these monster cards, so please don't feel like I am attacking you. I'm not.

 

I've also never argued that the 90-class cards can't be used in use cases that Titans previously occupied. However, this is the key point, they are still not actually Titans.

 

Why does that make it $1600 aside from branding changes? The 1080 Ti was $699. There was no "90" in that series. Why is the 4090 $1600? How is a 4090 as it relates to it's generation any different than what the 1080 Ti was to the Pascal generation aside from VRAM amount? Obviously different architectures and such, but I am saying look at them as they existed in their respective gens at those times. How are the cards different aside from VRAM? To my knowledge 90's still have the same limitations GeForce has always had versus actual Titans and if we look at the x80 Ti cards since the 90 cards released, its clear they have shifted down and are no longer the flagship cards.

 

So functionally Nvidia manipulated the branding the shift flagship gaming cards which just happen to overlap with Titan cards use cases up and everything else below the stack moved right along up with it and most consumers are not seeing this and are just buying the "its really a Titan" messaging coming from Nvidia, yet how many people are buying these for gaming vs workstation...I don't know, but I see the Reddit posts.

Edited November 30, 2022 by Sir Beregond

[UltraMega]

People are mad at Nvidia for taking covid/crypto era prices and trying to make them permanent, it's that simple IMO. No one is mad at 4090 buyers, people are mad at Nvidia for yet again surprising us with their level of greed. 

 

But just to play devils advocate, I've been saying the pacing effects of Moore's Law are over and these kinds of prices are going to be the new normal for everything high end in the hardware market more and more so going forward. I think Nvidia is greedy, but we are also hitting a Moore's Law wall, and both can be blamed for this situation. 

 

However the price issue is also due to Nvidia's poor planning and overstock, so if all three are factors, two of them are directly Nvidia's fault. Plenty of good reasons be mad at Nvidia right now. Hearing about people buying the 4090 is a little disappointing because Nvidia's issues make me wish people would vote against Nvidia with their wallets for a while, but that's mostly just wishful thinking. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by UltraMega

[pio]

Like Sir B and Ultra already stated, I have to agree.  I never once said that the 4090 was a "bad card".  I'm ticked off about Nvidia screwing people over.  $1600 for a $600-700 card is absolutely insane.  Look at the pricing history from Nvidia's top tier cards from the past 20 years or so.  You'll notice a trend starting ROUGHLY 5 years or so ago with the prices starting to skyrocket, and its not stopping with the 4090 being, yet still, more expensive than its predecessor.  I mean technically this all started about 10 years ago with the GTX 680 and original Titan, with the Titan being marketed as a "professional card", but in all actuality it was a top tier gaming card too (full die).  But it seems to be about 5 years or so ago that prices REALLY started getting out of hand.

 

Again, I'm NOT saying the 4090 is a bad card.  It's not.  The cabling issue they had, was laughable I'll admit.  Why fix something that's not broken (8 pins)?  With that one issue aside, my literal only complaint about it is pricing and its been wholeheartedly an Nvidia issue, and has been for years and its not stopping.  My complaint isn't about the card, or the people who bought one (seriously congrats).  My complaint stems from a greedy company doing shady business practices trying to raise the prices on people (and succeeding because nobody is speaking up).

 

It's kind of like when DLC first got going, where EA and the likes would nickle and dime you to death for content, but it really wasn't game breaking content.  People were defending it back then.....oh it'll never be a game breaking thing.  Fast forward to today, and there's games out there that you literally HAVE to pay for the game + multiple DLC packs just to get the full experience now.  These are anti-consumer policies, and these pricing structures from Nvidia are anti-consumer pricing structures.  Yes, I'm going to voice my concerns over it because I absolutely love BOTH companies equally (well, all 3 now).

 

If you're a parent of multiple kids, and one child does something wrong, do you criticize or punish all of your kids or just the one that's acting out?  Same thing here with Nvidia.

 

------------------------

On a PERSONAL note, I will not be buying a 4090 OR a 7900XTX (as much as I want one for my collection).  Not until prices come down to more reasonable levels.  I probably will end up with one (probably a 7900 because of my collection), but it won't be until I can snag a used one for half MSRP.  I paid $900 used for my 6900XT and I'm thoroughly disappointed with it (for the price), even though I love the card.  I'm NOT doing that again.  $500 to maybe $600 is my cap I'm setting on myself for any new GPU's.  If the companies cannot make a new high end card in that budget range (like they used to), then I'll wait and buy one second hand.  

Edited December 1, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[Sir Beregond]

Yeah I agree Pio. And to be clear inflation, wafer costs, R&D, and Ultra'a point about Moore'a Law, etc, I definitely don't expect the flagship gaming card to still be $500 or even $700. But $1600 ain't it. That price is simply a result of greed on Nvidia's part and getting the consumer used to such drastic price increases over what flagship cost literally 3 gens ago which in the grand scheme is not that long ago.

 

I think the 4090 is a fantastic card on performance, despite earlier rumors, upon release it's clear it's much more power efficient than Ampere in normal use, and from an enthusiast perspective that makes it an awesome card that I except to see great things from on this site (and have already) from J7SC and Jan.

 

Just because it's a great enthusiast card does not make it or Nvidia immune from me calling out issues I see as noted above in my earlier posts. I feel like on the whole that the enthusiast market of the past few years has not called this out. Halo products have always existed but what we've seen is a subtle yet effective marketing strategy that has changed what is what and how much it costs over the past 10 years. An 80-class card in 2010 means something completely different from what 80-class means now and this is the obfuscation of the market Nvidia has largely succeeded in over the last decade. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Sir Beregond

[J7SC_Orion]

26 minutes ago, pioneerisloud said:

Like Sir B and Ultra already stated, I have to agree.  I never once said that the 4090 was a "bad card".  I'm ticked off about Nvidia screwing people over.  $1600 for a $600-700 card is absolutely insane.  Look at the pricing history from Nvidia's top tier cards from the past 20 years or so.  You'll notice a trend starting ROUGHLY 5 years or so ago with the prices starting to skyrocket, and its not stopping with the 4090 being, yet still, more expensive than its predecessor.  I mean technically this all started about 10 years ago with the GTX 680 and original Titan, with the Titan being marketed as a "professional card", but in all actuality it was a top tier gaming card too (full die).  But it seems to be about 5 years or so ago that prices REALLY started getting out of hand.

 

Again, I'm NOT saying the 4090 is a bad card.  It's not.  The cabling issue they had, was laughable I'll admit.  Why fix something that's not broken (8 pins)?  With that one issue aside, my literal only complaint about it is pricing and its been wholeheartedly an Nvidia issue, and has been for years and its not stopping.  My complaint isn't about the card, or the people who bought one (seriously congrats).  My complaint stems from a greedy company doing shady business practices trying to raise the prices on people (and succeeding because nobody is speaking up).

 

It's kind of like when DLC first got going, where EA and the likes would nickle and dime you to death for content, but it really wasn't game breaking content.  People were defending it back then.....oh it'll never be a game breaking thing.  Fast forward to today, and there's games out there that you literally HAVE to pay for the game + multiple DLC packs just to get the full experience now.  These are anti-consumer policies, and these pricing structures from Nvidia are anti-consumer pricing structures.  Yes, I'm going to voice my concerns over it because I absolutely love BOTH companies equally (well, all 3 now).

 

If you're a parent of multiple kids, and one child does something wrong, do you criticize or punish all of your kids or just the one that's acting out?  Same thing here with Nvidia.

 

------------------------

On a PERSONAL note, I will not be buying a 4090 OR a 7900XTX (as much as I want one for my collection).  Not until prices come down to more reasonable levels.  I probably will end up with one (probably a 7900 because of my collection), but it won't be until I can snag a used one for half MSRP.  I paid $900 used for my 6900XT and I'm thoroughly disappointed with it (for the price), even though I love the card.  I'm NOT doing that again.  $500 to maybe $600 is my cap I'm setting on myself for any new GPU's.  If the companies cannot make a new high end card in that budget range (like they used to), then I'll wait and buy one second hand.  

 

I guess it is all relative, also per your post > here . Anyway, I happen to make my income with computers so I probably have a somewhat different approach to hardware costs. Be that as it may, a couple of quick points: 

 

1.) The 'cabling issue' has had multiple threads here (too many, IMO), most of which would degenerate into a continuous-repeat-tirade about 4090 pricing in particular and NVidia's market and pricing practices in general (pls see my comments above on not defending NVidia on that). Fact though is that the cabling issue actually only affected 0.05% of users, and most of which was traced back to user error, perhaps with some help of quality control on some connectors you had to be more forceful with. Never mind that the new cable is part of Intel's new ATX 3.0 standard and PSU producers are starting to switch over to it, also in part because of environmental regulations....

 

2.) On card pricing, the custom AIB 4090 (dual bios, 600W) was actually a touch cheaper per MSRP than the custom AIB 3090 (dual bios, 475W) I have, and about the same as the custom AIB dual-bios 6900XT. The latter two were purchased well before the crazy price bulge - shortly after, said 3090 model was offered by various scalpers for as much as US$ 5k on eBay...and even the non-scalper regular MSRP went up significantly. So the 4090 at MSRP was cheaper at about twice the performance of the 3090 at (original) MSRP...probably why the 4090 is mostly sold out right now   Then there is the whole issue of both general prices as well as average annual incomes moving up...quick example would be the Honda Civic...entry level MSRP in 1992 was ~ $ 11,900...in 2012 ~ $ 16,000...and in 2022 ~ $ 25,000. It is not just NVidia...

 

Overall, everybody is entitled to their own opinion - about NVidia and everything else. However, if it starts to harp on the same issues already discussed ad nauseum a gazillion times before, it becomes disruptive and betrays the true motivations, IMO. 

 

 

[Sir Beregond]

14 hours ago, J7SC_Orion said:

 

I guess it is all relative, also per your post > here . Anyway, I happen to make my income with computers so I probably have a somewhat different approach to hardware costs. Be that as it may, a couple of quick points: 

 

1.) The 'cabling issue' has had multiple threads here (too many, IMO), most of which would degenerate into a continuous-repeat-tirade about 4090 pricing in particular and NVidia's market and pricing practices in general (pls see my comments above on not defending NVidia on that). Fact though is that the cabling issue actually only affected 0.05% of users, and most of which was traced back to user error, perhaps with some help of quality control on some connectors you had to be more forceful with. Never mind that the new cable is part of Intel's new ATX 3.0 standard and PSU producers are starting to switch over to it, also in part because of environmental regulations....

 

2.) On card pricing, the custom AIB 4090 (dual bios, 600W) was actually a touch cheaper per MSRP than the custom AIB 3090 (dual bios, 475W) I have, and about the same as the custom AIB dual-bios 6900XT. The latter two were purchased well before the crazy price bulge - shortly after, said 3090 model was offered by various scalpers for as much as US$ 5k on eBay...and even the non-scalper regular MSRP went up significantly. So the 4090 at MSRP was cheaper at about twice the performance of the 3090 at (original) MSRP...probably why the 4090 is mostly sold out right now   Then there is the whole issue of both general prices as well as average annual incomes moving up...quick example would be the Honda Civic...entry level MSRP in 1992 was ~ $ 11,900...in 2012 ~ $ 16,000...and in 2022 ~ $ 25,000. It is not just NVidia...

 

Overall, everybody is entitled to their own opinion - about NVidia and everything else. However, if it starts to harp on the same issues already discussed ad nauseum a gazillion times before, it becomes disruptive and betrays the true motivations, IMO. 

 

 

I get what you are saying and if I harp on it too much then I apologize. I am in no way trying to make anyone here uncomfortable or feel like I am attacking them, so if it's come across that way, I apologize.

 

Put pricing aside, my larger point is how things have shifted. An 80 class card today and how it relates to it's gen is completely different from what an 80 class card was and how it related to it's gen say in Fermi. What we call a Titan or a 90 Ti these days was just called a GTX 580 back then and that's the element I feel is lost in a broader pricing discussion in the PC gaming community at large.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Sir Beregond

[pio]

4 hours ago, J7SC_Orion said:

 

I guess it is all relative, also per your post > here . Anyway, I happen to make my income with computers so I probably have a somewhat different approach to hardware costs. Be that as it may, a couple of quick points: 

 

1.) The 'cabling issue' has had multiple threads here (too many, IMO), most of which would degenerate into a continuous-repeat-tirade about 4090 pricing in particular and NVidia's market and pricing practices in general (pls see my comments above on not defending NVidia on that). Fact though is that the cabling issue actually only affected 0.05% of users, and most of which was traced back to user error, perhaps with some help of quality control on some connectors you had to be more forceful with. Never mind that the new cable is part of Intel's new ATX 3.0 standard and PSU producers are starting to switch over to it, also in part because of environmental regulations....

 

2.) On card pricing, the custom AIB 4090 (dual bios, 600W) was actually a touch cheaper per MSRP than the custom AIB 3090 (dual bios, 475W) I have, and about the same as the custom AIB dual-bios 6900XT. The latter two were purchased well before the crazy price bulge - shortly after, said 3090 model was offered by various scalpers for as much as US$ 5k on eBay...and even the non-scalper regular MSRP went up significantly. So the 4090 at MSRP was cheaper at about twice the performance of the 3090 at (original) MSRP...probably why the 4090 is mostly sold out right now   Then there is the whole issue of both general prices as well as average annual incomes moving up...quick example would be the Honda Civic...entry level MSRP in 1992 was ~ $ 11,900...in 2012 ~ $ 16,000...and in 2022 ~ $ 25,000. It is not just NVidia...

 

Overall, everybody is entitled to their own opinion - about NVidia and everything else. However, if it starts to harp on the same issues already discussed ad nauseum a gazillion times before, it becomes disruptive and betrays the true motivations, IMO. 

 

 

Okay, what about my post there that you linked?  Please, point to where in that post that I said the 4090 is a bad card or where I attacked anyone who owns one.  My gripe was about the greed from Nvidia, and my point in THAT post was that they're now asking $8,000 for a card that is NOT a full die card.  Marketing it as "not a gaming card" doesn't cut it when the Titans were marketed the same.  How am I wrong in that assessment and where did I say it was a bad card?

 

Point 1 you made:  I had one sentence re-hashing a previous point I had made about the cabling.  You're getting upset over one sentence.  Again, nowhere did I say the card was bad.  I said, and I quote, "the cabling issue they had was laughable......but why fix something that isn't broken".  The REST of my post was pointing out the fact that I've never ONCE said anything bad about the card itself, nor the people who bought one.  The biggest gripe about it, honestly, is point number 2 you made.....

 

Point 2 you made:  The pricing.  You can justify it all you want mate, the fact of the matter remains that the 4090 is the highest MSRP GPU to date (for gaming cards).  The other fact of the matter is that prices have trended UPWARDS consistently for a decade now and haven't shown any signs of slowing down or stopping, only accelerated price growth.  Yes, this is a problem for consumers.  Yes, people should be upset about this.  Yes, this is an Nvidia generated problem, although I will admit that AMD has certainly profited from these price increase trends as well.  Both sides are guilty in that aspect.

 

I understand that you have one, and that you're happy with it.  I'M HAPPY THAT YOU'RE HAPPY WITH IT.  (Not yelling, just wanting to make that clear).  But I stand firm on my belief that facts override feelings.  And the facts of the matter are that Nvidia has ticked off a lot of people lately with their anti-consumer price increases and releasing mid tier cut down die samples as "the big one" only to come out in another 3 months with a lesser cut die and mark the price up even higher.  Are you still going to justify this when they release another card, "a 4090Ti" variant of some kind with a MSRP of $1999 with 1 more SM unlocked that was already on the card to begin with?  What about a $2499 MSRP RTX 5090 with the full die that the 4090 should have had?  Where does it stop at?

The article here in question is about how "GPU sales are at the lowest point in a decade", and yet....I can't help but think that MAYBE, just MAYBE the reason why is because GPU prices themselves have been increasing for a decade, almost exactly.  It's almost as if, with every price increase, less people buy them.  Hmmmm.  I'll tell you this much, I know I certainly wouldn't be this vocal about it if it were a $999 card or less.

 

  

5 hours ago, Sir Beregond said:

Yeah I agree Pio. And to be clear inflation, wafer costs, R&D, and Ultra'a point about Moore'a Law, etc, I definitely don't expect the flagship gaming card to still be $500 or even $700. But $1600 ain't it. That price is simply a result of greed on Nvidia's part and getting the consumer used to such drastic price increases over what flagship cost literally 3 gens ago which in the grand scheme is not that long ago.

 

I think the 4090 is a fantastic card on performance, despite earlier rumors, upon release it's clear it's much more power efficient than Ampere in normal use, and from an enthusiast perspective that makes it an awesome card that I except to see great things from on this site (and have already) from J7SC and Jan.

 

Just because it's a great enthusiast card does not make it or Nvidia immune from me calling out issues I see as noted above in my earlier posts. I feel like on the whole that the enthusiast market of the past few years has not called this out. Halo products have always existed but what we've seen is a subtle yet effective marketing strategy that has changed what is what and how much it costs over the past 10 years. An 80-class card in 2010 means something completely different from what 80-class means now and this is the obfuscation of the market Nvidia has largely succeeded in over the last decade. 

I agree 110% with this statement, including the bolded paragraph.

 

The bolded sentence in the last paragraph is part of the reason why I'm so vocal NOW about Nvidia and these problems they're putting out.  I'm sure most of us have been around the block a time or two, and maybe some people have forgotten the horrible things Nvidia has done in the past, or AMD, or XFX, or Gigabyte, or, or, or any of them.  Enough is enough, we NEED to start being vocal about these issues, so we can have a proper hardware market again like we had 20 years ago.  A GPU shouldn't cost the same as a used car.  Our parts shouldn't be locked down to the point the end consumer has no rights over how the thing works.  Cables shouldn't be catching on fire when there's been proper cables for years.  I mean, these things shouldn't NEED to be said, but sadly they need to be. -_-

Edited December 1, 2022 by pioneerisloud

[schuck6566]

Just a quick point out, My first "expensive to me" video card purchase was my MSI GTX 970 4g at a cost of about $350 plus tax. My next upgrade was an EVGA RTX 2070 XC Gaming for $550 plus tax, when released the RTX 3070 from EVGA started around $550 MSRP BUT couldn't be found for under $600 on their site even today (despite Nvidia lowering the MSRP of the 3070 to $500) Given the fiasco of the 2 4080's and the smaller brothers un-launching and apparent re launching as the 4070Ti (Gigabyte has already filed the models they're making of it https://www.techradar.com/news/nvidia-rtx-4070-ti-gpu-could-arrive-soon-but-at-what-cost ) Who KNOWS what the actual cost of a RTX 4070 will end up being? But my point is that we can see a steady increase in price, but it JUMPED with the 3xxx series because of Covid related issues(supposedly) and now they're keeping the prices right up there.  Oh BTW, the 1070 from EVGA was around $430 to $450 so you can see an increase of roughly $100. Note in the included screenshots that the current listing for NEW EVGA 3070's show they are selling for $100-$150 more than the 2070 I bought new even though the 4xxx series has started to release.